No Jerks Allowed: Trust and the Philosophy Behind Building PGA

In this episode of PGA's 'Breaking the ICE' video podcast, host Gordon Greene, PE and Principal | Roadway Director Joe Lauk, PE discuss the 'No Jerks' philosophy that shapes the culture at PGA. They explore how to maintain a respectful and collaborative environment, the importance of treating people with kindness, and how PGA’s organizational structure helps maintain a connected team. The conversation also touches on utilization goals,  fostering community involvement, and more!

Tune in to hear from: 

• Gordon Greene, PE | Co-Founder & Executive Vice President (Host): He’s the embodiment of a competitive spirit, and that motivation has powered his drive as an engineer, business owner, and civic volunteer for the past 25 years. He also loves talking to people about how these interests converge! Come join the conversation! 
• Joseph Lauk, PE | Principal & Roadway Director: Since joining the firm in 2015, Joe has been 200% committed to PGA and its clients, all while rapidly growing the Roadway Group and joining PGA's executive leadership. Joe attributes his success to being curious, finding a team-wide consensus, and doing the right thing to deliver results. Joe's curiosity often challenges the status quo or, at a minimum, generates discussion to ensure processes are still valid. Joe is active in professional engineering societies and within his community as a volunteer and leader.  

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Transcript

PGA Breaking the ICE: Episode 2

[00:00:00] 

Welcome and Introduction

Gordon Greene, PE: All right, well welcome back to the PGA Breaking in the ICE podcast. Um, this is episode two for us and before I introduce our guest, uh, what we're gonna be covering on this episode, we started with a, with a title of no jerks. It's a, uh, kind of a philosophy on how we bring people in. I. And so with me to talk about that is the only jerk we allowed in 

Joseph Lauk, PE: clearly.

Gordon Greene, PE: Joe Lauk. Uh, so Joe Lauk is our director of Roadway. Just kidding. He is like the nicest guy ever. And, uh, he's gonna be talking with me, Gordon Greene, as we, uh, kind of cover some of the philosophy, PGA, how we, um, you know, treat our people, how we [00:01:00] handle different things, conflict management. So we do get kind of into the no jerks thing, but um.

Gordon Greene, PE: Yeah, just wanted to have a good conversation, help sort of, uh, help folks understand, you know, what it's like to be at PGA and, um, so anyway. Yeah. 

Joseph Lauk, PE: Well, thanks for having me. Yeah. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Yeah. Where should we start? 

Joseph Lauk, PE: I don't know. Wherever you want to. 

Gordon Greene, PE: All right. 

Our Culture and No Jerks Policy

Gordon Greene, PE: So, um, maybe, maybe we will start, um, I don't know, maybe how it went today.

Gordon Greene, PE: What do we do today? 

Joseph Lauk, PE: Played golf. Had fun. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Yeah, we, we worked hard today. Uh, played a little golf. I got my socks on. My shoes are hurting me. Uh, if you, if you're watching on YouTube, uh, get a little peek at my socks. Um, yeah, we had a, we had a, a pretty good time and, um, uh, got to invite, uh, one of our young engineers to play with us.

Gordon Greene, PE: Uh, kind of through our mentorship program, but it was really just a good opportunity to, to him along. 

Joseph Lauk, PE: But he's your mentee. [00:02:00] But I did most of the mentoring, 

Gordon Greene, PE: correct? I delegated that's how it works. I delegated that. Um, so yeah, we, we had a good time at Trevor Hawkins there. I guess shout out to the, was it the West coast branch of, uh, FES and Yep.

Gordon Greene, PE: They put on a pretty good, uh, golf tournament today. So Trevor Hawkins with PGAs was a big part of that, and they get a whole team. Uh, those folks did a really good job there. Uh, so yeah, we had had some fun there, uh, getting along with each other. Um, so that kind of speaks a little bit to, uh, 

Joseph Lauk, PE: Work hard to play hard.

Gordon Greene, PE: Well work hard, play hard, but also, you know, it's me and Hiren and you and bringing Noah along, like, you know. 

Joseph Lauk, PE: Right. 

Gordon Greene, PE: You know. No, no. I wouldn't even have thought twice about it unless we were kind of thinking about the, these things. Um, and so may, maybe that's a good place to start, is, um. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Kind of our flat organization, but really how we think about that, you know, we're not intentionally being, uh, flat for any sort of [00:03:00] necessarily business reason.

Gordon Greene, PE: I think it's more culturally that just fits us better. You know, there's no, um, real vertical hierarchy where I'm more important than you and, and that sort of thing. So, 

Joseph Lauk, PE: yeah, I, I think like today, being able to be out there with a younger engineer hanging out, talking, getting to know them. Um, you can see that our younger staff recognize that in us, uh, can ask us questions about different things going on in the company, different things that they're doing in their day to day.

Joseph Lauk, PE: And, you know, they, they recognize maybe we're not doing the CADD work anymore. Right. Um, but we're still in it. We're still, you know, doing it, interacting with the client, interacting internally. Uh, we're not just sort of sitting back. Looking at numbers all day long, so, 

Gordon Greene, PE: Exactly 

Joseph Lauk, PE: I think our folks recognize that.

Joseph Lauk, PE: Yeah. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Yeah. And when it comes to the, the no jerks thing, you think of a jerk, it's, you know, someone may be yelling or whatever, and I don't think anybody, anybody's tolerating that really. [00:04:00] Um, but there's, there's other ways that you can kind of be a jerk and, um, create an environment in the office that, you know, people don't really want to be a part of.

Gordon Greene, PE: And, um, I think that's the, the attitude of. Well, that's not really my job. I don't do that anymore. Um, I don't think I really have time for you. You know, even if people aren't explicitly saying those things out loud, you can say those things with your actions and your attitude. Um, and we don't, that's not something that we sure don't tolerate here.

Gordon Greene, PE: Okay. Um, so, uh, that's super important to us when we're, when we're hiring, and I think we even sometimes we'll ask questions about that. Um. So, I don't know, maybe, 

Joseph Lauk, PE: I guess, you know, I mean, take it way back. Like that was one of the things that I saw when I was contemplating leaving my previous place of employment, of where would I [00:05:00] fit.

Gordon Greene, PE: Right. 

Joseph Lauk, PE: Um, we often talk about seller doer, um, but it was even more than that. It was really just like all hands on deck to get stuff done, and we're a team. Doesn't matter what we're doing. Um, you know, whether it's outside of my area of expertise or not my, my project, like everyone was helping. Yeah. And I could tell that even at the onset of, you know, young PGA and that's always been, you know, things that we, at least I've tried to continue to instill in our, our growth, you know, younger folks that we bring on, Hey, if you want to try something.

Joseph Lauk, PE: You know, don't feel like you're hindered in what you're doing right now. You're just roadway. No. Like take an opportunity to go work, do some drainage work or structure. If there's an opportunity, help out. Learn something new. Yeah. Um, and I think we've always at least continued to try that, uh, drive that internally.

Joseph Lauk, PE: Uh, and I think we've been pretty [00:06:00] successful on that. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Yeah. Yeah. I think that goes a long way. I think people appreciate that. Um, I think a lot of that comes, comes down to trust, you know, I think. If you want your folks to trust you, you have to show that you trust them, um, to, you know, maybe try those new things and, um, trust that they're gonna, you know, be honest with it's either working out or it's not.

Gordon Greene, PE: And, uh, trust that they want to be the best engineer, planner, or whatever that they can be. Um, and if they're feeling a certain way, like some little change might help do that, then we're, we're all for it. 

Joseph Lauk, PE: Do you think we've had any times when, uh, maybe folks don't have that mindset? Um, uh, and, you know, ways we try to address that?

Joseph Lauk, PE: Either one, uh, in the hiring process or even after maybe somebody's come on. Um. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Yeah, well, you hiring's tough, right? Like [00:07:00] you, we can ask all those questions. We can say, you know, are you willing to step in and, and do, and of course everybody will say in an interview, absolutely I'll do, I'll take out the trash if you want me to.

Gordon Greene, PE: Sure. Um, but when they come in, you know, if that's not something they're willing to do, you figure that out pretty quick and I try to emphasize that, um, when I'm giving advice on hiring, like yes, ask all the good questions, have a few meetings to get a feel for somebody. Um, but we are just like everyone, we've been fooled.

Joseph Lauk, PE: Sure. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Um, and, uh, but you figure it out quick and I think we do figure it out quick. Um, because we have, I would say, I mean, I've only worked a few places, so. I'm just biased opinion obviously, but uh, listen to people that have come in. I'm sort of using that to form my opinion as well, the concentration of kind people that fit that [00:08:00] mold.

Gordon Greene, PE: Um, I think we have like a whole company of them, you know, whereas other companies have plenty of those people, but plenty that aren't that way. So when someone comes in and they. Aren't like that. It's, it's like a foreign body and they just get ejected. Like they stick out so, so quick and so much that, um, it's obvious.

Gordon Greene, PE: Yeah. And we, you know, sometimes have to deal with that. 

Joseph Lauk, PE: Yeah. And I, I think, you know, in terms of the no jerk, I think sometimes maybe we've been a little kind and try maybe too long or too hard to. Either make things fit that don't fit, or try to adopt and adapt, and sometimes it's just not the right fit.

Joseph Lauk, PE: Yeah. Um, but we have that loving kindness, like just make things work and make, make, make good opportunities for, for people to be successful. Yeah. Um, [00:09:00] uh, and sometimes it does work. I think sometimes we've, we've had some, um, you know, adjustments and reestablish expectations and things are fine. Uh. Yeah, I think it's always a, an interesting thing.

Gordon Greene, PE: Well, that's certainly the, uh, if there's a downside to, to, you know, being kind and all that, it's, that stuff gets drawn out. Um, I, I've certainly learned this since we started PGA and you have to deal with that sort of thing. Um, sometimes I have to be the jerk in a way. Um, when something's clearly not working out, uh, you know.

Gordon Greene, PE: Nobody listens to me usually because people don't, people are they like, let's just give 'em one more chance. But, um, I think oftentimes we know, and here's my thing, um. It's not really being a jerk. Sure. 'cause if someone's here and they're underperforming Right. For [00:10:00] whatever reason. Right. It's usually not due to incompetence.

Gordon Greene, PE: There's no, there's Right. 

Joseph Lauk, PE: It's just not a right fit. We do not, 

Gordon Greene, PE: we do not do rocket science here It is. Nothing is super 

Joseph Lauk, PE: Speak for yourself 

Gordon Greene, PE: Uh, yeah, I understand. Um, but you have to like it. Right. I mean, like anything else, you have to like what you do to be good at it. And if it's not something you enjoy, then you're not gonna be particularly good at it.

Gordon Greene, PE: So it's, it's not a kindness 

Joseph Lauk, PE: Yeah. 

Gordon Greene, PE: To hold somebody in a position where they're not gonna be successful.

Joseph Lauk, PE: Agreed. 

Gordon Greene, PE: So, like, I try to encourage, like, yes, it's not gonna be fun if, if it comes down to, you know, we need to let somebody go. But it truly is a kindness. And a lot of times when that happens, either we do that mm-hmm.

Gordon Greene, PE: And we go through that, or we don't, and then they end up quitting or whatever. You know, it ends the same. Um, those people that are truly hardworking and smart, but just, you know, couldn't click in here, didn't quite like [00:11:00] what we do here. Um, they go somewhere else and they're super successful. 

Gordon Greene, PE: I mean, super successful.

Gordon Greene, PE: Yep. Um, which makes us happy.

Joseph Lauk, PE: Right. Absolutely. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Makes us happy. Even if they, even if they, even if we didn't want them to leave. 

Joseph Lauk, PE: Sure. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Which I think is, can be a distinction. We're not unique in that. There's, there's a lot of engineering firms and people within those firms that are able to sort of transcend the, um, the business part of it, you know?

Gordon Greene, PE: Mm-hmm. But there's quite a few. If you leave that company, you know you're dead to them. Right. And, uh, you know, things can be awkward and things like that, which is so silly. Um, absolutely. 

Joseph Lauk, PE: Because it's such a small industry too. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Oh yes. Well, you know, we always say too, um, don't be well, don't be, be a client, be kind.

Gordon Greene, PE: Honestly, be truly kind. But certainly don't be rough because they may be going to another consultant now. Right? Six months or six years from now, they may [00:12:00] be deciding which con contracts you get, so that are mind your P's and Q's. Um, so if you're not naturally kind, there's a reason to be kind right there.

Gordon Greene, PE: Um. Yeah, I think that's something I, we take a lot of pride in. I know like we, as leadership, we try to encourage, you know, when someone maybe has their feelings hurt because someone they really sort of enjoyed working with and had all these high hopes for, and they leave for whatever reason and they want to get upset, we're being upset.

Gordon Greene, PE: It's okay. 

Joseph Lauk, PE: Sure. 

Gordon Greene, PE: But, but you know, we're not gonna treat that person any differently. As a matter of fact, we're gonna. You know, treat them with respect. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Well respect and like, truly try to genuinely wish them well. And, um, because it is like, you know, we spend a lot of time and energy on this company.

Gordon Greene, PE: Sure. Um, and it is very important to us, but it's not, it's not everything. It's really not everything. Um, life and, and, you know, civilization and [00:13:00] society and, uh, treating each other with love and kindness. Um, I. Is definitely more important 

Joseph Lauk, PE: Absolutely. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Than this, the dang engineering company. 

Joseph Lauk, PE: Yeah. And you know, we, we talk about this, but it's, it's not an everyday occurrence.

Joseph Lauk, PE: And matter of fact, I think we're pretty good on like retention and keeping folks. So, you know, it comes across every once in a while, but this is not something we have to deal with a whole lot. Uh, so I think we're lucky in that, in that standpoint, but it's something we have to deal with. So, 

Gordon Greene, PE: yeah.

Gordon Greene, PE: Absolutely. All right. What's next? Oh, here's a good example. Um,

Gordon Greene, PE: I guess internal like strife, uh, not strife, but stress stressful situations. So, um, something goes wrong on a project, uh, or it's just super tight deadlines and, um, all that of which happens obviously. Um. Can you [00:14:00] think of any times where that happened? Where you're like, man, this would be a prime example or a prime opportunity for someone to get all wrapped around the axle and mad, but here we are, we're not, the kindness is still there and we're loving each other through this situation.

Joseph Lauk, PE: Yeah, I, I mean, without going into tons of specifics, but we had a bunch of, uh, alternative analysis, um, cost estimates. That were super quick turnaround. Super quick turnaround. Um, and it's so easy to get, you know, upset at the client for why they want this done so fast and why they need to have, you know, all these different things evaluated.

Joseph Lauk, PE: It just needs to be done right. Like, sometimes that's what the client needs and sometimes that means, you know, staying late. And I think, I think there was like three or four of us stayed till two o'clock in the morning. Just to get it out. So the client had it first thing in the morning. [00:15:00] Everybody could have said like, no, you know, just not gonna do this.

Joseph Lauk, PE: Sure. But I mean, we all stuck around, had dinner, put our, our, uh, you know, noses ground and got it done. And like we all felt good about it. We were, we were excited. Like, man, that was a lot of work, but we did it together. Mm-hmm. It was awesome. Yeah. Um, it's like in the trenches. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Uh, so the, those are the.

Joseph Lauk, PE: The tough times, but the fun times because you'll learn who your partners are. You, you know what, you know, things people are good at, maybe things maybe people aren't so good at, and you, you know, work on their strengths and people lean on your strengths. Um, I, I've learned a lot, um, and gotten to know a lot of folks working those late hours trying to get stuff out the door.

Gordon Greene, PE: Yeah. Yes. You bond in those, 

Joseph Lauk, PE: That's for sure. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Yeah, I can, I, I can think of one example and, and PGA people listening to this, uh, including the [00:16:00] marketing folks looking at us right now. I, I won't even name the proposal, but, um, it was like we put a whole big proposal together. So much work, uh, we were proud of it, and then we missed the deadline by, you know, whatever, a few minutes or something crazy.

Gordon Greene, PE: Um. Again, I mean, that might be the most prime opportunity for finger to be pointed and people get mad and blame and all that. But, uh, and I'm sure there was frustration abounding, but I'm, I'm not aware of any of that happening. 

Joseph Lauk, PE: Yeah. 

Gordon Greene, PE: It was just like a, well, uh, that happened. Um, you know, let's figure out why that happens.

Gordon Greene, PE: That doesn't happen again, but also like. You know, it's not like it wasn't lack of effort. It wasn't really anybody's fault per se. Um, maybe the process or something was at fault or whatever, and we could fix that, but, um, [00:17:00] man, like there was none of it, right? I mean, that's just the, the kind of, the kind of folks we have and I guess the culture that we've, you know, been able to foster is like, we're not gonna it.

Gordon Greene, PE: What good does it do? 

Joseph Lauk, PE: Right. 

Gordon Greene, PE: What good does it do to get all mad at each other? We, we gotta go work on the next proposal anyway.

Joseph Lauk, PE: And I, I think, I think, you know, knowing the example you're given, um, it was multiple people that sort of stepped up and said, I haven't 

Gordon Greene, PE: Yes. 

Joseph Lauk, PE: A part of that. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Yes. 

Joseph Lauk, PE: It wasn't just one person, it was, you know, multiple people that came and said that.

Gordon Greene, PE: Yeah. Yeah. We used to, um. I took a lot of lessons away from playing baseball as a kid. Um, but I remember that was one of 'em. 'cause a lot of times I would play shortstop and that's kind of the, uh, leader of the field or whatever. And if anybody ever made an error, even if you had nothing to do with it right?

Gordon Greene, PE: It was your job to go, Hey, that's my fault. Yep. 

Joseph Lauk, PE: My bad. Yep. Um, 

Gordon Greene, PE: and there was a lot of that, you know, [00:18:00] um, people just like taking, trying to take the blame off of anyone that felt like maybe they, you know, kinda were or whatever, but. Uh, to me that was such a great example of like, this is, this is really a, this is a great group of people.

Gordon Greene, PE: Of people. Yep. Alright, so maybe let's get into, uh, utilization. Um, I'm gonna try to make you talk more, but, uh, this is kind of a, 

No Utilization Goals, Ever!

Joseph Lauk, PE: this is a Gordon topic. 

Gordon Greene, PE: It's a pet peeve. Mine, 

Joseph Lauk, PE: Gordon topic. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Yeah. So why don't, why don't you, you 

Joseph Lauk, PE: want me to ask you the questions? 

Gordon Greene, PE: Nope. Nope. I'm the host 

Joseph Lauk, PE: and I'm the guest. 

Gordon Greene, PE: And you're the guest.

Joseph Lauk, PE: Alright fair. 

Gordon Greene, PE: So, uh, you've heard me get on my soapbox a few times about utilization, so why don't, why don't you share the PGA philosophy on individual utilization goals delivered to the employee? 

Joseph Lauk, PE: Yeah, I, I, I think the philosophy is we just don't do it right. And I, and I think, um, I don't think I know, um, [00:19:00] it, there's no value in it.

Joseph Lauk, PE: The perception that I've got when you give somebody a goal is they're gonna do everything that they can to meet that goal. They're not responsible for bringing in work. How are they gonna be able to meet that goal? The only way to do it is to charge to some job maybe they're not working on. Uh, so I think the philosophy of not setting those goals, uh, being transparent with where we're at on projects.

Joseph Lauk, PE: Being fair to our clients by only building to the projects when we're actually working on those projects. Um, and being transparent on where we're at. Like folks will work on the jobs that they've got, so things look a little light in the future, well win some more work, keep people busy. Um, I, I mean it.

Joseph Lauk, PE: I've worked at a consultant before here. You did as well. Um, I think everybody had those goals, right. And I don't know if they drove anything other [00:20:00] than Yep. Somebody met that number. What does that mean? Um, everybody had those dog jobs that Sure. You met that number, you didn't make any money. What does it matter

Gordon Greene, PE: exactly.

Joseph Lauk, PE: Um, so I, I think just collectively of letting folks know how jobs are doing. How busy we are, what stuff looks like six months from now. People just work on jobs to get stuff done and out the door and work for the next thing. So 

Gordon Greene, PE: do you ever feel like, uh, maybe there's folks that take advantage of that, uh, freedom or that, that trust that we put in them?

Joseph Lauk, PE: I don't think so. Um, I think maybe you will have folks that, um. Will want to use their time to get stuff like training done, uh, or participate in things. I don't necessarily know that they're taking advantage of it. I think they just don't necessarily know how the process works. Yeah. And how the company makes money.

Joseph Lauk, PE: So that's on us to better [00:21:00] explain to them and have managers better understand the process. Um, but it's, I mean, it's all about teaching them, letting them understand and. Most of the time when they understand that, it's like, oh, something clicks in their head and they're, they understand, Hey, we need to get stuff out the door, make some money.

Joseph Lauk, PE: So, 

Gordon Greene, PE: exactly. You wanna know what I think about it? Same 

Joseph Lauk, PE: thing 

Gordon Greene, PE: I do. Oh, okay. I do think the same thing, but um, especially at the size that, you know, we're at now, uh, a little bit bigger. I, I, there's obviously the opportunity for someone to sneak in and take advantage of that. 

Joseph Lauk, PE: Sure. 

Gordon Greene, PE: That 'cause we're gonna trust first.

Gordon Greene, PE: It's not like, uh, you come in here and earn our trust. We're gonna start with trust. And then if you screw that up, that's on you. Um, most, but most people don't. Most people, or especially in the engineering industry, they're good, honest people and they want to work hard and do a good job. Um, but here's, I guess my thing, uh, so what.

Gordon Greene, PE: If someone does come in and take advantage for a [00:22:00] little while, that'll, that'll out itself right in time. Uh, and I think here it'll out itself sooner than later. Of course, we have to be at that point, willing to go. Alright. You know, we, we can't trust you. You don't belong here. Right. Um, easier said than done.

Gordon Greene, PE: We, we already talked about that a little bit. You know, we're, we're kind people. We wanna give people the benefit of the doubt and all that good stuff, but, um, in the end, it works itself out one way or the other. And then you're back to your core group of people that you can trust and we can, we can do great things with those people.

Joseph Lauk, PE: I think it's important, maybe folks that are listening, right? Like, it's not that we don't track utilization. Yeah. And we don't set. Anticipate a goal from trying to understand what our billables will look like. Um, but just forcing that upon an employee of, Hey, you need to meet this target. That's where I think it goes above and beyond of being practical or, or beneficial.

Joseph Lauk, PE: Yeah. Um, when you empower your leadership for understanding what those [00:23:00] numbers should be, when things start tracking, then you can engage, you know, a group leader and say, Hey, it looks like. You know, your, your billability is down a little bit. 

The Importance of Company Culture and Trust 

Joseph Lauk, PE: Are we in between jobs we need to go pursue some stuff with?

Gordon Greene, PE: Right. 

Joseph Lauk, PE: But it's not a, you're not meeting your target, you're outta here kind of thing. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Right, right. Um, yeah. What's wrong with you? 

Joseph Lauk, PE: Right, right. Yeah. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Yeah. 'cause the answer is typically something like, we're chasing so much of work, man. Right. What do he wants to do? 

Joseph Lauk, PE: Right. And it's not a pressure, it's a what can I do to help you be successful?

Gordon Greene, PE: Right. Um, 

Joseph Lauk, PE: or get other folks to, you know. Mine some projects or mine some contracts and, and get you some work and, and pull some stuff out for you. Uh, it's never a, hey, you're not meeting your target, 

Gordon Greene, PE: right? Yeah. We just, uh, we just went through this a little bit here at the beginning of the year, just like what you're saying.

Gordon Greene, PE: Put some goals to people so we could do some revenue projection and stuff. We're not, we're not irresponsible businessmen. Um, we, we do you have to do that thing to work the math.

Joseph Lauk, PE: Sure. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Yeah. Um, and you know, Eddy and [00:24:00] I met with you, and of course you get all this, so I didn't have to give you my preamble, but some of the other group leaders had to give.

Gordon Greene, PE: So it was an opportunity, honestly, to share this philosophy with folks. Like, okay, we're gonna be talking about individuals. And what we think their utilization will be. Um, 

Joseph Lauk, PE: but it's not their goal,

Gordon Greene, PE: but we're not gonna share. And then for some people, I think some maybe that were a little newer, I wanted to make sure they understood.

Gordon Greene, PE: I said, as a matter of fact, I forbid you that's exactly what I used. I forbid you from telling these people what their goals are because it's, it's not important. 

Joseph Lauk, PE: Correct. 

Gordon Greene, PE: It's not important for them. So, um, so we, it's a 

Joseph Lauk, PE: planning tool, that's all it is. Correct. It's a tool. 

Gordon Greene, PE: We need it for the math. Yes. 

Maintaining Core Values During Growth

Gordon Greene, PE: Um, yeah, so I think that that goes a long way, and I know when we share that with people, um, especially folks that have worked at a place where that's a big deal 

Joseph Lauk, PE: mm-hmm.

Gordon Greene, PE: It resonates. 

Joseph Lauk, PE: Yeah. And I, I think that coupled with our single cost center approach, [00:25:00] um, really guides towards that trust, right? 

Gordon Greene, PE: Mm-hmm. 

Joseph Lauk, PE: Because when you hire new folks or you're bringing on a new. Uh, discipline. It's not a us versus you. It's not a, uh, are they making money? We're doing good over here. It's collectively we're trying to help grow this thing, um, and be successful.

Joseph Lauk, PE: And we know that there's going to be investment in a lot of this stuff. And, you know, those, whatever chargeability goals might not come for six months, 12 months, depending on what it is, 

Gordon Greene, PE: right 

Joseph Lauk, PE: Uh. But that's easy when we're one cost center rather than a bunch of individual silos, because that's where the finger pointing comes.

Joseph Lauk, PE: So I, I think that philosophy goes a along way. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Yep, yep. And we're, we're always trying to do something special. We, we were interviewing, uh, a, a guy the other day, um, and he, he'd been around a while and [00:26:00] worked for a few different places, and, um, a few of 'em at least gave goals and all that stuff. 

Joseph Lauk, PE: Yeah.

Gordon Greene, PE: Utilization was a big thing. And he appreciated that we didn't do that. Um, but suggested that, you know, well when you, when you, if you get too much bigger, you know, whatever, 500,000, then you're probably gonna have to, and in my brain, and I said it out loud to him, I'm like, why? 

Joseph Lauk, PE: Absolutely. Why 

Gordon Greene, PE: would you have to explain that to me?

Gordon Greene, PE: Why, why would you ever have to Yeah. 

Joseph Lauk, PE: I, I think if you propagate the culture and you instill the expectations rather than like the, the end result, like you have to get this no. Like set a process that works. It's expandable. It can work. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Absolutely, it is. 

Joseph Lauk, PE: Um, it might take a little bit more to work and you need management leadership to have a grasp of like.

Joseph Lauk, PE: Not all of the groups can grow exponentially all [00:27:00] the time. Right. Right. You have to focus on key areas. Some of those areas will sustain the others. Right. Um, but don't put that onus on an employee that has no Correct. Like opportunity to manage that. It just, it, it doesn't work that way.

Gordon Greene, PE: It does not work. Exactly. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Um, it, it oftentimes, I, I think people think that because it is hard. Yeah. It's, that is the hard way to do it, but it's. The best way. And I think when, when we get to that point, um, we're 500 people, a thousand people, whatever, um, we will, uh, the only way we're gonna, you know, maintain this philosophy at that size is that it is ingrained in culture.

Gordon Greene, PE: So we're kind of in the middle of that, you know, as we're scaling up and growing and trusting sort of that group leader level to convey the cul, like live the culture, share the culture. Um, like that's what we're doing now. 

Joseph Lauk, PE: Yeah. Yeah. 

Growth Without Compromise: Holding on to our Why 

Joseph Lauk, PE: I, um, I, I think as we [00:28:00] continue to grow and we'll, we run into hurdles and try to tackle stuff, we maybe can't do things the way we used to, but I think the underlying principles are always gonna stay the same.

Joseph Lauk, PE: Yeah. How we manage it maybe is a little bit different. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Sure. 

Joseph Lauk, PE: But. I, I don't ever see us like you've gotta hit this utilization and roadway is its own group and the Right. Those things I think are Yeah, 

Gordon Greene, PE: anti-cultural. 

Joseph Lauk, PE: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Well, you bring up a good topic, uh, and like I said, we're kind of in the middle of it, so let's just, Spitball here while all the recording equipment's going. So no individual utilization target is, that's definitely there forever. Yeah, don't do it. We're gonna stand out with that. If you could name just one more thing for now that we would say, no matter how big we get, and maybe the way we carry certain things out may have to change as we get bigger.

Gordon Greene, PE: The thing [00:29:00] itself can never change.

Gordon Greene, PE: Yeah, it was a good one, wasn't it? 

Joseph Lauk, PE: You didn't, 

Gordon Greene, PE: I probably shoulda have had my own answer ready before I ask that question, 

Joseph Lauk, PE: man. Hmm. Um,

Joseph Lauk, PE: yeah, I, I don't know right off the top of head. I, I'll give you the, the true answer. Um, but I, I tend to, when things come up of, Hey, we just can't do it the same anyway anymore, in my mind, the question is. Why? Mm-hmm. And if, if the answer is typically like, well, we're gonna have to change this system, or we're gonna have to, you know, do more meetings or coordinate or whatever, that's not always the greatest of answers.

Joseph Lauk, PE: If it's just because we haven't done it that way. Uh, or we need, we've been doing it this way, it doesn't work anymore. Well, can we tweak, can we make it work? Right? What's, what's the deal? Um, but philosophically we shouldn't just [00:30:00] completely change something. Because our systems don't work anymore. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Yeah. 

Joseph Lauk, PE: Um, 

Gordon Greene, PE: absolutely.

Joseph Lauk, PE: Yeah. I, I think, you know, when, when, when we change philosophy, we change our approach to something completely, um, it takes away everything we've done to that point that's made us successful. Um, so when we make a drastic change, um, you know, we really need to think about it before we execute anything drastic.

Joseph Lauk, PE: So 

Gordon Greene, PE: yeah, we should always have a why. 

Joseph Lauk, PE: Absolutely. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Every single time. Uh, I think I got one. Uh, maybe I'll see what you think about it. No, so, so I was thinking like, back to mission. So mission elevate our families and communities, our profession and, and also like when we're, what I like to do is I really like to do this.

Gordon Greene, PE: If we're interviewing somebody and I'm there, but someone else is there, maybe they're the hiring manager, they're just part of this, you know, team trying to recruit into [00:31:00] like. As much as possible. I like to let them sell. Um, 'cause I've done it a bunch of times anyway. Sure. And, uh, I just, I just like to hear other people sell the company, um, to potential recruits and what's often brought up the no utilization.

Gordon Greene, PE: People love that. Mm-hmm. Um, and we don't do it just 'cause we think it'll help us recruit. Like it's 

Joseph Lauk, PE: Right. It's, it's a thing. It's, yes, it's a thing. 

Gordon Greene, PE: We're not doing it. Um, but there's also like the parties that we do Sure. Or events and parties and stuff like that. 'cause we do a good number of 'em and we, and we do it up.

Gordon Greene, PE: Um, that's, that's definitely a big one. So I think that falls into elevating our families. And so I think to your point, like we're still able to have one big party like, we'll just take the holiday party. 

Joseph Lauk, PE: Party. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Yeah. Um, and we have one big party in Orlando and we can still do that. It makes sense. We got plans of being all over the southeast, taking over the world, whatever.

Gordon Greene, PE: [00:32:00] Right. Um, at some point, 

Joseph Lauk, PE: yeah, 

Gordon Greene, PE: that's not gonna be feasible to just have that party anyway. We'll still have the big party in Orlando, but at some point we may have to have other parties, you know, 

Joseph Lauk, PE: maybe regional, maybe whatever. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Maybe we'll fly everybody in. I don't know. But even that would be a change to maintain the thing.

Gordon Greene, PE: So the the, the thing is, um, the, the event. The party, the whatever. But it's always, if it's an adult event, it's always, please bring somebody else. It's usually your spouse, but it's, it's whoever bring your mom, bring your nephew, like you bring one other person so we can meet more of your family. Um, and if it's a family event, it's a, it's a family event.

Gordon Greene, PE: I don't know, other than random, you know, it's like small office happy hours where it's like inconvenient to bring your family, um, everything you're bringing somebody 

Joseph Lauk, PE: right. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Um, and I, I think, 

Joseph Lauk, PE: or at least the opportunity to bring 

Gordon Greene, PE: Yeah. The opportunity. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Sure. Um, and that's [00:33:00] part of our mission to elevate our families is to, to create those opportunities.

Gordon Greene, PE: So I think that should go in the box of 

Joseph Lauk, PE: never changing, 

Gordon Greene, PE: never changing. Now, I don't know, there may some great depression and the, the big huge, you know, party with a dinner and everything may not be financially feasible. But we're gonna go somewhere and we're gonna do something and you're gonna bring somebody with you.

Joseph Lauk, PE: Right. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Um. Forever. 

Joseph Lauk, PE: Yeah. And uh, I, I think one of the good things that we've done is recognize that we need to manage and, and track some of these things. And that's definitely one of the things that we look at in our culture committee of, you know, what are the things that we can do based on how successful we are?

Joseph Lauk, PE: And. I, I think it's always been like, we want to take that as long as it can go as one event. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Absolutely. 

Joseph Lauk, PE: Uh, but like we always understand, there might be a point in time might not be feasible probably because the event space doesn't hold us anymore. Or yes, whatever hotel we were gonna [00:34:00] stay at just doesn't have that many rooms.

Joseph Lauk, PE: Um, but it's never like, well. We're just not gonna do that anymore. I, I don't think that's ever come up in a conversation. It's just maybe it's a little bit different. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Yeah. 

Joseph Lauk, PE: But we're still doing something 

Gordon Greene, PE: Right. 

Joseph Lauk, PE: We still want to, you know, engage our families, engage our, um, our employees and their spouses.

Joseph Lauk, PE: So, yeah. I, I don't, I'm with you. I don't think that will ever change. Yeah. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Yeah, I think that definitely goes in 

Gordon Greene, PE: and, you know, elevating our, our communities and profession. That's probably, I mean, I think those are things, it's part of our mission. We're always gonna do them. Um, but that'll certainly change over time.

Gordon Greene, PE: I don't know that I would put that necessarily in the same, I don't know. It feels like it's a kind of a level down from those two things we talked about. 'cause they're so, I mean, so critical 

Joseph Lauk, PE: Sure. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Uh, to the culture, but, you know, getting involved with our communities is a very important part.

Joseph Lauk, PE: That's why we exist, right?

Gordon Greene, PE: Like, yeah. 

Joseph Lauk, PE: Yeah. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Uh, I mean. I'm just trying to think of, is there one thing we do? [00:35:00] I think for those, maybe that's why I'm feeling a little bit 

Joseph Lauk, PE: Yeah. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Of a difference because I can, I can, the, the other thing is more tangible. I think the community's thing is, it's more, it's guess it's more spread out. It's kind, it's kind of hard to nail it into one thing.

Gordon Greene, PE: We just, it's just a thing that we do.

Joseph Lauk, PE: Right. 

Gordon Greene, PE: But we do it in a thousand different ways. 

Joseph Lauk, PE: But I, I, I'd challenge that a little bit in the sense that like, we are always going to dedicate. Our time, our talents, and our, um, you know, efforts to support our communities. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Right? Yeah, for sure. 

Joseph Lauk, PE: I don't, I don't know that there would ever be a time that we, you know, grow to a size where it's like, Nope, nobody can go out and spend time in the community.

Gordon Greene, PE: Absolutely. 

Joseph Lauk, PE: You can't donate to this like. That's always gonna be there. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Absolutely. 

Joseph Lauk, PE: We're, we're going to have that in the budget. We're gonna make sure that we provide folks time to go, uh, to do those things. Yeah. So maybe that is one thing that's like 

Gordon Greene, PE: For sure. 

Joseph Lauk, PE: Solid. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Yeah. At least at that level. 

Joseph Lauk, PE: Yeah. 

Gordon Greene, PE: That we're, we're gonna be in involved in our communities.

Joseph Lauk, PE: Yeah, for sure. 

The Seller Doer Mentality: Lessons learned. Who works best with us 

Gordon Greene, PE: All right, so maybe the last thing we'll take up [00:36:00] is, um, how we've at least somewhat recently started to hone in on our identity and helped us figure out. Who, who works best with us and, and you know, maybe folks that we shouldn't even bring in no matter how amazing they are because they don't really fit that identity.

Gordon Greene, PE: And, um, some of that came through, uh, finding some leadership in our Orlando office. And, uh, a few folks kind of come in and out of that position and, you know, we're kind of scratching our head like, what is going on? Why can't we. Get this and you know, we're, we've, we got like amazing things going, Orlando, we're about to get into a new space and so, uh, all is well.

Gordon Greene, PE: But, but we did take some good lessons away from that. You wanna talk a little bit more about that? 

Joseph Lauk, PE: Yeah, I, I think it's, uh, you know, honing in on like what, what makes us us, right? I think that's always been, um, folks that are. You know, willing to [00:37:00] go out, sell PGA and come back and get stuff done. Um, so that seller doer mentality, um, you know, has, has really, I think, allowed us to grow substantially and not, not just in one discipline, but really across the company.

Joseph Lauk, PE: Um, but you know, also recognizing that some folks have their strengths in some areas, so. Does it mean that you have to go pursue projects and come back and do all of the CADD in it now? Right. Like, but you need to know what's going on. You need to be plugged in. You need to, you know, be in there in the day to day.

Joseph Lauk, PE: Um, so, you know, recognizing that, yes, some folks are gonna be more of the project manager leaders, some are gonna be more of that technical leaders, so it's, it's, you know, building on the strengths of the right folks. Mm-hmm. And building a team that works together cohesively, uh, to get stuff done. Uh, so I, I think, think we've, uh, come a long way in Orlando and, and really built that group out to be [00:38:00] very successful.

Gordon Greene, PE: Yep. Yep. To, to fit in with the rest of what everyone, uh, is doing. At least in, in terms of leadership, I guess. But, um, it's, it's also an, I think another example of us not. Saying necessarily, well, this is how we do it and this is the best way to do it. 

Joseph Lauk, PE: Right. 

Gordon Greene, PE: It's the best way for us to do it. And I guess that's just, you know, starts with hiring me, but also you and, and, and, and Joe, I'm gonna said important.

Gordon Greene, PE: Joe. Joe, sorry. Um, really all leadership. Uh. Who this, this may sound judgmental, but it's not. Um, we, we we're engineers. We're engineers anyway, but of course we have planners and we have other professions, and it's the same thing. You know, whatever, whatever it is that folks do here, they enjoy that work.

Gordon Greene, PE: Right now, like you're speaking to, there's the, there's practicalities. At some point you get. [00:39:00] You know, like you and I aren't really 3D modeling much. We, we zero had to make that decision. 

Joseph Lauk, PE: Zero. Yeah. Zero.

Joseph Lauk, PE: And, uh, darn, 

Gordon Greene, PE: at some point you have to let stuff go. So there's some things that we can't actually do anymore.

Gordon Greene, PE: Um, and so other folks have to do that for us. But, you know, there's still plenty of engineering that we can do and we can offer our, um, our knowledge and we can give feedback or whatever, not because. You know, I have to like, enjoy. Let's go, man. Absolutely. Let's dig in. What's your, what are you dealing with here?

Gordon Greene, PE: Let's, let's try to figure it out. Like we, we enjoy it. 

Joseph Lauk, PE: Right 

Gordon Greene, PE: And so, you know, if you're gonna come, especially if you're gonna be in a leadership position at PGA, that has to be your approach otherwise, 

Joseph Lauk, PE: and you have to, you have to come into it. Um, excited about it. Yeah. And sometimes it's like. Yeah, people make fun of me sometimes 'cause I'll, I'll jump in to answer a question every once in a while that goes on the general roadway teams.

Joseph Lauk, PE: Um, but it's because I'm excited. Like, oh, I think I know that. Like, let me help somebody really quick. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Yeah. Yeah. 

Joseph Lauk, PE: Because I can't do [00:40:00] that with everything anymore. So if I've got that, I'm sharing it. Um, but I, I think we've got a lot of folks with that same mentality that really just truly are, um, you know, wanting to help.

Joseph Lauk, PE: I think that goes across the board, uh, and, and leads to why we're successful. 

Concluding Thoughts 

Gordon Greene, PE: Absolutely. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Yeah. I think that's critical. And as we continue down the path and continue to grow, we've got all these, um, plans for growth. It's, you know, I guess wrapping up in summary, all these sort of sacred things that we're putting in the box of these things can never change no matter how big we get.

Gordon Greene, PE: The most recent is this, like I, you know, I guess we're seller doers. It's not like we didn't, it wasn't part of the original vision of PGA or anything. Um, and for a while when you're smaller, you can, you can be a little more flexible and I guess people you hire in their approach to work because you know, you're smaller and you can do that.

Gordon Greene, PE: Um, but I think we got to [00:41:00] the point where it's like, well, it's counterproductive to do that anymore. It seems to be, anyway. Uh, we're not, there's no. Like wisdom or anything that we're bringing, we're just kind of looking back and we're getting wiser as we look back and learn some of these lessons. But, um, that was an important one to go, okay, this, this is how we work best.

Gordon Greene, PE: And so moving forward, as we bring more and more people and we share leadership more and more as we spread out, they have to be this kind of per, this has to be their approach to work. It has to be, or they're not gonna be very successful here, and then we're not. So it doesn't, doesn't really work for anyone there.

Gordon Greene, PE: So yeah, I think we'll wrap it up there. Um, all this sort of ties into our culture, who we are, um, and what we really need to hold on to as we grow PGA. Go PGA.

Joseph Lauk, PE: Go PGA 

Gordon Greene, PE: All right. Appreciate you being here, man. 

Joseph Lauk, PE: Thanks for having me on. [00:42:00] Appreciate it. 

Gordon Greene, PE: This was a good conversation. I always enjoy talking to you.

Joseph Lauk, PE: You too, man. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Can't wait. 10 more years. 20 more years. We'll be that a thousand people. 

Joseph Lauk, PE: Yeah, we will. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Yeah. Making sure nobody assigns utilization goals to anyone. They're gonna do it the day after we leave. They better not, 

Joseph Lauk, PE: Nope. 

Gordon Greene, PE: All right. Well, thank you all for joining us here on the PGA Breaking the Ice Podcast.

Gordon Greene, PE: Uh, hope you enjoyed Joe and I, uh, talking gibberish and nonsense, and 

Joseph Lauk, PE: hopefully I made sense. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Hope. Yeah. Hopefully it, uh, it made some sense and was helpful and you enjoyed it, and we'll see you back here next time. Thank you. 

Joseph Lauk, PE: Go PGA 

Gordon Greene, PE: Go PGA.