Keep the Dust Off Your Strategic Plan: A Proven Approach for Building and Advancing Strategy

In this episode of PGA’s Breaking the ICE podcast, host Gordon Greene, PE sits down with Mark Isaak, PE, CVA of Isaak Advisory Group to talk about building actionable strategic plans and keeping the momentum going long after the kickoff.

Mark shares his path from engineering to strategic planning and offers practical insight into PGA’s planning process, including how to involve the right people, set realistic goals, and review progress consistently. They also explore how thoughtful planning can strengthen company culture, why external facilitation can be a game-changer, and the role consultants play in turning strategy into measurable results.

Tune in to hear from:

• Gordon Greene, PE – Co-Founder & Executive Vice President (Host): He’s the embodiment of a competitive spirit, and that motivation has fueled his work as an engineer, business owner, and civic volunteer for the past 25 years. He loves talking with people about where those passions overlap! Come join the conversation!
• Mark Isaak, PE, CVA – CEO & Founder of Isaak Advisory Group (Guest): With more than 30 years in the A/E industry, Mark brings a competitive, growth-minded perspective to helping small and mid-sized firms scale. He and his team deliver transformational strategies that balance bold strategic initiatives with strong operational and financial performance—and he genuinely loves digging into what makes firms thrive.

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Transcript

Gordon Greene, PE: [00:00:00] Welcome to Breaking the ICE. We're Patel Greene and Associates, and we are here to tell stories about our three favorite things, business, culture, and engineering. Let's get to it.

All right, well, welcome back to PGA's podcast, Breaking the ICE. I'm glad to see you again for this, uh, episode, we are happy, honored to have Mark Isaak with us, with Isaak Advisory Group. Hey, Mark, how's it going? 

Mark Isaak, PE, CVA: Pretty good. Pretty good. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Glad you can make it. I'm glad we worked this out. Uh, Mark is coming to us from Texas, um, and we worked it out timing wise for him to do this podcast while he was here, and I'm excited to get into some of this.

Um, but before we get too far, I thought maybe give you a chance to introduce yourself, talk a little bit about your background a little bit, maybe about our history, which extends quite a bit at this point. 

Mark Isaak, PE, CVA: Yeah. Um, 

well, 

I, uh, started working for PBS&J in Clearwater, Florida in 1985 [00:01:00] after I graduated from college and, um, I was fortunate enough to grow with the company, so I was there for 27 years.

During that time, I'm sure you're aware that Atkins bought PBS&J, I think it was in 2010. Um, but over the years, I, uh, progressed through positions. I think I was always a pretty good engineer, but I was more interested in the business side of things about how, how we decided to go to the Atlanta area when we first broke outta Florida.

Um, I followed ENR back then, so I was kind of like a, not a square peg in a round hole, but I was just kind of an oddity to a engineering firm. At the first office I worked at was Clearwater, John Zaulmant was the office manager and, um. I was really fortunate because I would ask him all these silly questions about growth and, and he tolerated me.

Mm-hmm. And he didn't [00:02:00] treat me like a, a civil engineer, like a business person. So, um, you know, I eventually, PBS&J asked me to move from Tampa to Austin. Uh, we had just bought a firm there and, uh, they had a small transportation group and I went there to lead that. Eventually I left, um, Atkins and, um, went to work at a small firm in Austin and eventually did the same thing for JMT, where I was the first person in Texas and we grew a group.

And, and after that, it was like seven years ago, I said, you know, I really wanna do this growth, uh, stuff full-time. So I started Isaak Advisory Group and we focus on, um, helping small to mid-size firms get through growth barriers. And I, you and I both worked at the time and, uh, were we in Bartow at the exact same time together?

Gordon Greene, PE: Yeah. Yeah. I started at DOT District one, of course. And when that sort of [00:03:00] ran its course and I needed a job, um, go back to episode one if you want more details on, I 

Mark Isaak, PE, CVA: didn't realize that you actually worked at the district. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Yeah, I was OPS, uh, right outta high school. And, uh, OPS, uh, for those you don't know, um.

It's meant for summer employees, but I was internship, but they stretched the money and borrowed from other departments and stretched me for a good year, really, through the next summer. Um, but then it was like, I gotta get a real job at DOT or, and they just, it didn't work out there. Um, and you know, my brother-in-law had already started at PBS&J and I, of course, of course I knew him.

I knew Dave. Um, and you know, they got me job at PBS&J, so I was a shoo in, I think, or at least I felt like I'm, I'm, I'm good here. They were telling me that anyway, but they still made me interview with you 'cause you were the office manager. Um, which I can, I can still [00:04:00] remember. I don't remember what we talked about, but, um, I remember going into your office and I definitely remember.

Printing that resume out and, and bringing all that to you. Um, 

Mark Isaak, PE, CVA: and, 

Gordon Greene, PE: uh, which I think about Young Gordon, I'm like, but you know, that's pretty good of me to, to not be cocky enough to go, well, I got this job, but I guess I can, I can talk to this guy like I'm gonna. 

Mark Isaak, PE, CVA: You came in full gas 

Gordon Greene, PE: and used the opportunity, 

Mark Isaak, PE, CVA: and I've told the story many times over the years that, um, whenever I interviewed somebody who I thought was exceptional, whether we hired them or not, we, maybe we didn't get 'em.

I always had a, a hanging file and I put 

Gordon Greene, PE: mm-hmm. 

Mark Isaak, PE, CVA: People's resumes in there and I eventually, we ended up hiring some of the people that we didn't hire the first time around. Um, but you were in that file. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Mm-hmm. 

Mark Isaak, PE, CVA: And, uh, it's, it's a great memory. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Yep. Yes. That was 24 years ago. Just about. Yeah, almost exactly.

Mark Isaak, PE, CVA: So I had some hair is what you're 

Gordon Greene, PE: saying. You had more hair. I did too. Um, uh, but yeah, so that was PBS&J in Bartow, where [00:05:00] our paths first crossed. But you know, I was entry level CAD tech and you were running the office. But you know, the cool thing about that Bartow office was, even though e even at the time PBS&J was a, a very large company, um, it didn't feel that way to us.

We had our little, yeah, our little Bartow world. Um, and of course you had created a, a great culture there. You learning from John and others, uh, you know how to do that. And I really en enjoyed working there. I enjoyed on my old time at PBS&J 'cause, uh, like we, like we, I know Hiren, and I talked about this on our first podcast, that even over in the Tampa office, which was, uh, well at the time had become the headquarters, it was a very big office, um, for any engineering firm, but certainly the biggest office for, for PBS&J.

I think. It's still felt that way. Yeah. It was really cool. So I, I, we've always held onto that, um, idea that just 'cause you get bigger doesn't mean you have to lose the culture. It might get a little harder to do it. It's, it's pretty easy [00:06:00] with the right people to do when you're smaller. Um, but you can still do it if you set things up that way.

Mark Isaak, PE, CVA: Yeah. And when 

Gordon Greene, PE: you get bigger 

Mark Isaak, PE, CVA: professionally, you grew up together, you actually are friends. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Right. 

Mark Isaak, PE, CVA: Just happen to be coworkers. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Yeah. Yeah. That's true. 

Mark Isaak, PE, CVA: Yeah, 

Gordon Greene, PE: that's a good way to look at it. Um, our paths crossed again, I mean, I think it was probably a few years there where, um, maybe kept up with each other on LinkedIn or Yeah, whatever.

Um, but paths crossed again when, uh, we've got PGA going and, um, trying to develop strategic plans. And we had developed our first one in 2018. It initiated in 2019 and we had, uh, John Zeal help us with that. Mm-hmm. Uh, and I can't remember, I think, I feel like you might have tipped us off to John. Uh, I can't remember how we figured out that he was doing that work.

You know, he had sort of in his semi-retirement crossroads he was doing it Yeah. With Crossroads. [00:07:00] Um, and that was a really good experience and, and, uh, we worked through that plan. It was a good plan. Um, and when we had completed that when we're ready to do the next one. Um, reached back out to John and, um, I think, well, what he told me, I think, uh, verbatim was, uh, he's trying to be a full-time grandpa or so something like that.

Maybe that's not verbatim, but that was the gist. It was his polite way of saying, I don't want to do it again. Okay. You know, he, he, uh, you know, he wanted to be a grandpa, so that's cool. Um, but he had, I think maybe he mentioned you, but I'd already, at the time, he knew what you were doing, so we were working together some, um, and so I, I guess I wanna give him, well, I guess the idea was that y'all would work together.

Mark Isaak, PE, CVA: Yeah, we did. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Did, but then he, he just sort of, dropped off 'cause Yeah. You know, he's, he's winding down grandfather, but it worked. 

Mark Isaak, PE, CVA: Yeah, 

Gordon Greene, PE: it worked out great. So, um. Then we, we really pulled you in, uh, on that second strategic plan. Um, so [00:08:00] I wanna talk a little bit more about that. Um, maybe you can get into some of the, uh, like your philosophy behind strategic planning.

Um, I, I'll probably spend a little bit of time 'cause we've done, we've done the two. Um, but we do have some, although yours and John's philosophies are probably very much aligned, but they're not identical. And certainly your approach to these, what we found was they're a little bit different, so I can kind of compare and contrast that a little bit, but tell us a little bit about your, your philosophy behind that.

Mark Isaak, PE, CVA: Well, I was fortunate enough to be in management and leadership at PBS&J for three cycles of the five year plan. So I basically, 15 years I was either involved in developing some of the parts of it, being on the team. Or later on I was actually, um, held accountable for hitting 

those, 

those things. And, um, as you know, PBS&J was really [00:09:00] good at, um, doing plans and really good at, um, assessing them afterwards.

And sometimes we assessed. I remember one time we had a plan. It was every goal was we had A, and then an F and then A and then f. And it was because we kept growing transportation, we kept growing land development, but. We didn't get into those emerging clients that we talked about during the planning session.

So, um, I was exposed to that and I was also pretty frustrated with the industry in general about how they kind of make fun of strategic planning. And I was, it's, it's kind of a passion of mine about let's, let's put together a strategic plan. Let's get the, the right people in the room. Let's focus and make it practical for where the company is now and where the company's going.

Uh, a lot of the times back in the, you know, nineties, early two thousands, there was a bunch of team building and trust [00:10:00] falls. And so, and really I think it should be focused on what's in front of the company and what are they dealing with. And on a strategic level, you know, um. One of the main things that we start off with is, um, who should be in the room?

And you guys did a great job with that because the, my philosophy, or philosophy of the company is, first of all, you wanna bring management, leadership, people who have the ability to implement, okay? But you also want to bring in a, a diversity of personalities. So if you have a bunch of dreamers, you'll come up with a big pie in the sky plan that probably will never get accomplished.

If you have nothing but Bulletproofers in the room, they, they will 

Gordon Greene, PE: mm-hmm. 

Mark Isaak, PE, CVA: Pull down and say why you shouldn't do anything. Right. So you gotta have a good blend, and then you gotta have that, um, mutual respect between the Dreamers and the Bulletproofers. So they say they have a working relationship where they've been doing this tug of [00:11:00] war, 

you 

know, but they respect each other and they move forward not as fast as maybe a dreamer would want.

But not as slow as the bullet proofer would want. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Right, right. Well, I I'm probably in the dreamer category. 

Mark Isaak, PE, CVA: Definitely. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Yeah. Um, and I think, 

Mark Isaak, PE, CVA: but in a good way, 

Gordon Greene, PE: and I hope so. Um, I think, uh, we do have, I mean, I can, I can name a couple Bulletproofers right off the bat. Um, but I think your point about, uh, mutual respect and being on the same page is really important because.

When the dreamers like, uh, we should do this and this, and we can do it. Come on, we can do it. Um, they, they want to achieve that thing. And although we might try to think of the risk and we, in those rooms we're even talking about the risks, it's easy for the dreamer to go, well, it's not, it's not that big risk.

Right. Um, because they want everybody to say, yeah, let's do the thing that they wanna do. [00:12:00] Um, but when there's that mutual respect and you got someone over there that you know, also wants to achieve the thing, they're not just trying to be a that blanket, right? They really do want all the goals to be achieved, but they see that risk maybe sometimes for worse than it is, but they certainly see it for what it is.

They're not gonna take it too lightly. Whereas I might be tempted to do that, and I might even try to convince them that it's not a big deal. But, um, when that respect is there, they don't just go, okay. You know, they'll, they'll come back. Yeah. Which is good. Those are good conversations 

Mark Isaak, PE, CVA: there. That's the second thing that I would talk about is the, um, that sometimes we say that don't let how you're gonna do the plan, get in the way of creating the plan.

Because a lot of times the, the bullet proofer types. We'll ask a question with the best of intentions. Well, how are we going to, and right. So we say we're gonna talk about what [00:13:00] not the how. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Yeah. 

Mark Isaak, PE, CVA: How is for later, and that kind of sets the tone that we're gonna, we're gonna push back and talk about risks and stuff.

Are we going after too much in this cycle? That kind of thing. But we're not gonna solve how we're gonna implement it. 'cause that'll, that kills every meeting, you know? 'cause engineers can get down into the technical people, scientists environment. Yeah. And get down into the details pretty quick. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Yeah. What I did find that some of the folks in that room, uh, so when we do the next one to keep this in mind, uh, that is a, a, a good practice.

'cause otherwise we've never gotten outta that room. Um, but some feedback I got was. With those instructions, they found it hard to contribute because they, as engineers, they want to dig into the how. That's, that's who we are. Um, so I thought I made a mental note of that and I'm like, okay, so we need to think about that time.

Mark Isaak, PE, CVA: Maybe we should let them, let people have a time to say, here are [00:14:00] the challenges with that. Yeah, with that strategy. Then just put 'em up, you know, write 'em down. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Right. 

Mark Isaak, PE, CVA: But we're not gonna solve, 

Gordon Greene, PE: correct. 

Mark Isaak, PE, CVA: Right. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Yeah. Yeah. Don't expect answers. 

Mark Isaak, PE, CVA: You know, one of the things that I think about too is, uh, from a 30,000 foot view is the people in the room need to know, you know, who the company is and where they're going.

What, what are we trying to do? Mm-hmm. At, at a high level. Um, you, it's not the place where you start, you know, defining who you are unless you're a absent startup and it's their first strategic plan, right? So, um, the, the other thing is that I like to look at strategic plans as the project, right? 

Gordon Greene, PE: Mm-hmm. 

Mark Isaak, PE, CVA: So there's a scope of work that's the actual document that we look at.

It has the three to five goals, and then you have, um, a schedule. Five year schedule. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Mm-hmm. 

Mark Isaak, PE, CVA: Right? Mm-hmm. And you know, we, we talk about is this a first year [00:15:00] goal or is this a fourth year goal? Right. Uh, we kind of rank 'em that way. And so that's the schedule. And then the budget is a strategic hire, um, marketing campaign, whatever resources you're gonna need to implement that plan, that's your budget.

And then finally, when you have a project, you, um, you regularly meet on that project, right? We certainly have done that. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Yes. Monitor your progress, see how you're doing. Um, yeah, so I thought, you know, maybe this is a good opportunity, uh, 'cause it speaks to your philosophy on things. Anyway, when we did the one with John, we ended up with a nice book and, um, it was actually one of, I think, Katie's first, uh, task as our marketing director was, Hey, here's this word file, um, with some typos and not particularly well formatted.

Can you, can you make this better? Um, and she did. She, it was great. And there's a lot of good information. There's [00:16:00] like, background on the company and it was, it was like a literal book with a spine and everything. 

Mark Isaak, PE, CVA: Oh 

yeah. Copy. 

Gordon Greene, PE: And of course, uh, yeah, yeah, yeah. It, it was, it was beautiful. We were really proud of it.

Um, and it certainly served its purpose, uh, and it being the only one we ever had done. Um, when we, uh, went through the process for the second plan with you, um, we kind of expected, we do the same thing. Um, and you sent us four pages, 

right? Right. 

Hey, mark, is this like the beginning when I'm into the book after this?

And this is the executive summary. Um, and, and you know, that you explain your, your approach with that, which is No, no, we're this is it, this is, this is all you need. Um, all that other stuff, you're gonna, you're gonna figure that out now. 

Mark Isaak, PE, CVA: That's the how 

Gordon Greene, PE: y'all are gonna figure that out, right? That's the how exactly.

So we did of course, take that and we, we, uh, made it look real nice and we organized it. Um, and it's a bifold, so we went from the book to the bifold, uh, which is a lot easier to share anyway. [00:17:00] Um, 

we 

maybe, yeah. Speak. Speak. Like, why is that, why do you think that's more effective? 

Mark Isaak, PE, CVA: Because, because the next five years we're gonna go into that bifold and we're gonna say, what does it take to implement that first goal?

And they're gonna be, you know, it might be eight. 10 people involved in that one goal that not doing things but actually leading parts of it. You know, like it's a big, it might be a big thing. Um, and basically that is a, can be used as a recruiting tool. I've really pushed our clients to do that. You go to lunch with a strategic hire that you wanna hire and you pull out that strategic bifold.

You in one action, you show them that you know who you are and where you're going. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Mm-hmm. 

Mark Isaak, PE, CVA: And when, when you're 40 people and you do that, the person who's worried about coming to work at a small firm, suddenly they're not so much so worried. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Mm-hmm. 

Mark Isaak, PE, CVA: Right? [00:18:00] So, um, and when you show that to your employees, this is what we're doing.

And I'm not saying that it should be laying around at the, in the lobby, at the office. 'cause it's, it is confidential and it's your plan. But the, uh, the staff management leadership should know all about it. Uh, you should use it as a recruiting tool, and it's nice and tight. And then the second part of that is we're gonna have a meeting.

Right. And I, I don't know, I don't know what your reaction, the first time I suggested that we were gonna have a meeting about the strategic plan. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Yeah. I think we said No problem. We'll just add to the meeting we're already having. I think we started, 'cause I was going back and looking for meeting notes for something else I'm doing on this and I went way back and, uh, I was in our previous strategic plan.

Mark Isaak, PE, CVA: Well I was like, I don't know if you remember, the first thing that I did for PGA was I took John's, that, that booklet and I [00:19:00] created my version of that, which was a bifold and, and it was, um. I think that was when we first, 

Gordon Greene, PE: that's 

probably 

it. Yeah. 

Mark Isaak, PE, CVA: We first started the vision meeting. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Yes. I think you're right.

Mark Isaak, PE, CVA: And um, uh, I have actually sold your idea about using the strategic plan as the meeting agenda, which is brilliant. 

Gordon Greene, PE: I'm not sure if I got that from somewhere, if it just seemed to make sense to me. But, um, what easier way to walk through the plan than I make that your agenda, I guess. 

Mark Isaak, PE, CVA: Yeah, it 

Gordon Greene, PE: worked. 

Mark Isaak, PE, CVA: Yeah.

Yeah. And the, what we typically see is that when you do this, you have the first meeting. Right. And sometimes it's quarterly and I don't think you're doing it every two months. It's 

Gordon Greene, PE: like every two or three. Yeah. We always end up bumping it once or twice anyway. It seems like, um, 

Mark Isaak, PE, CVA: invariably the first meeting everybody comes and no one's done anything.

Gordon Greene, PE: Yeah. 

Mark Isaak, PE, CVA: And um, I always try to make sure that as one person that has actually done their stuff, so that you get that like, uncomfortable feeling on the team that, oh, we're actually gonna meet. We're gonna talk about this. Yeah. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Your name is on here. [00:20:00] 

Mark Isaak, PE, CVA: Right? Right. And, um, you know, it's miraculous. The next meeting, everybody's got their, uh, items done.

Yeah. And the pro and the plan starts making progress. Um, yeah. You guys have, you guys have a great track record, track record of that. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Yeah. I know when we started the, the new plan that, that he helped us with, uh, I had it set up as bimonthly or quarterly or whatever, and, uh, with the. The plan broken down into agenda form like you're talking about.

And I think we made it through halfway through the first goal. Yeah. The, I'm like, okay, this ain't gonna work. I'll see y'all next month. Yeah. And we, we did start, we did it monthly until we got all the way through. Right. And then you're just updating in progress and um, you know, some of this is just basic, like you say, it's a project.

This is basic. Effective project management. Correct. So you have the meeting and everybody's young host. Sure, I'll take care of that. And as soon as the meeting's over, they're going back to their emails. So what I got in the habit of doing, especially if there were a lot of action [00:21:00] items, I felt like there was a lot of work assigned during this meeting.

I'll follow it up with an email and say, Joe, here's the stuff you said. You did all, all the way, everybody that had assignments in an email boiled down into action items and. That's been pretty effective. Also, 

Mark Isaak, PE, CVA: another thing that happens, and we've certainly experienced this on the, at the meeting, is, well, something completely fell apart and we're not gonna do that anymore.

Yeah. The market changed or, or a client doesn't, is not outsourcing anymore. Whatever the reason we have to pivot. Right. And changed. And it's not that the playing gets smaller, it's like, do we replace that with something else? Right. Or do we just let it. The bottom. Yeah. Right. And the other thing I would say about from a 30,000 foot is, um, why wouldn't we let the market pick where our company's going?

You know, that's what happens when you chase RFPs, is you're at the, the whim of the marketplace [00:22:00] and there's something to be said that you have to chase projects. I don't have a problem with that, but if we had a plan. That we knew what kind of work we're gonna get into, what we're gonna expand into when we see it, we're gonna jump on it because we've been talking about it for three years.

Right? And, um, you probably, your chances of winning that new work is a lot better because you've done all the ground, uh, pre-position and 

Gordon Greene, PE: yeah, it really helps decision making. 'cause like you say, we, we go in there and we say, okay, well this one, we, we got a lot going on in 2025 already, so let's not try to do that too.

We'll put it in 2026 or 2027. Then lo and behold, late 2025, something comes up. That is exactly what that is. Some opportunity falls in your lap. You don't say, well, can't do it. It's 2027. You go, well, we already decided we wanted to do it. We just got the timing wrong. Right. Let's go. 

Mark Isaak, PE, CVA: That's right. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Knock it off even.

And sometimes that might mean, well, we haven't really started on this other thing. Well, we can just, maybe we'll bump that. We'll just let. In that [00:23:00] case, you kind of, in a way let the market, it's probably, I guess that's more fate than the market, but 

Mark Isaak, PE, CVA: Well, it's 

Gordon Greene, PE: opportunistic. Yeah. It's op Yeah. You just take opportunities as they come.

Mark Isaak, PE, CVA: Yeah. 

Gordon Greene, PE: But if you don't have a plan that lays out all the things you want to accomplish, you won't identify the opportunity for what it is when it comes to you. So, 

Mark Isaak, PE, CVA: exactly. 

Gordon Greene, PE: That's up to us. Multiple 

Mark Isaak, PE, CVA: times you'll pounce on that because you've talked about it, it's in your plan. It might not be the correct, the, the timing that we talked about or that we predicted, but you'll, you'll know it's an opportunity to jump on.

Gordon Greene, PE: Yeah. Um, all right, so let's, let's transition a little bit into, um, I guess maybe your experience working with PGA. Um, we, for the 14 years we've been in business while, while we are consultants and we advocate for the use of consultants. Um, we have rarely used consultants here for the work that we do.

Other, um. Other things that, you mean 

Mark Isaak, PE, CVA: like advisory consultants? 

Gordon Greene, PE: Yeah, like yeah. Outside consultants to us to like business, I guess [00:24:00] type consultants, but not just strategy stuff, but um, you know, marketing and graphics and stuff like that. It's always been, um, our, I guess, approach that we'll just do. I'll just, we will bring the talent in and we will always do it better ourselves than somebody that doesn't know us.

Um, and with a rare exception, uh, you know, we did have a website redesigned and we, we had a consultant help us with that, only because some of that is beyond our expertise. I'm not gonna hire a website designer just for one way, obviously that sense once every five 

Mark Isaak, PE, CVA: years. Yeah. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Um, and we run those people through the ringer because they think they're just gonna come in.

With a bunch of people that don't really know what they want and give them something and go on about their day. And they are sore mistaken when they come to PGA because 'em exactly what we want. We just can't quite do the whole thing ourselves. Yeah. And you will do it the way that we want to do it. Um, and, and we got there with a website and it looks great, but, um, they earn their money on that [00:25:00] thing.

Um. So when it came to strategic planning, that's kind of a weird thing because we have some strategic thinkers. Um, and uh, we probably could have put some sort of plan together, certainly on the second round 'cause we've kind of been through it. Um, but the thought never really crossed my mind because that in my mind is one example of you need an outside perspective.

You can get in a, even if you have the best people in the room that. Have a diversity of thought and are o like, perfectly comfortable sharing their opinions. You still have a bit of an echo chamber like you Yeah. You, you need someone to come in and I think, uh, with a outside perspective to facilitate the whole process.

Um, but uh, I think you will say your experience was, um, good, but also maybe different than some other. Firms that you've helped in that 

Mark Isaak, PE, CVA: Oh, 

Gordon Greene, PE: absolutely. We knew what we wanted to do. 

Mark Isaak, PE, CVA: Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. It was [00:26:00] a matter of, of facilitating the choices and, uh, not generating stuff, you know? Right. It was not generating from scratch.

A lot of times we facilitate, um, strategic planning and the company has an idea of what they want to do, but they actually think the facilitator's going to. Strategize, strategize for him. So that that's, that's a actually a tough meeting. Um, because, you know, um, it might be a completely different segment of our industry that I don't know about.

Gordon Greene, PE: Sure. 

Mark Isaak, PE, CVA: And, and I'm there to facilitate, like you said, the great brains in the, in the room, you know, throwing ideas out and Yeah, organizing 'em 

Gordon Greene, PE: well and asking great questions like make, making us think. About our strategy because you, you may end up guiding it some through your good questions and your facilitation, which is what we'd be wanting you to do.

Um, but, but you know, passively, I guess 

Mark Isaak, PE, CVA: yeah. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Is the way, like we know what we want, [00:27:00] um, but we don't wanna, we wanna lean on your experience for one thing. You know, you're not. A strategic planner from, I don't know, some other industry that doesn't really know about 

Mark Isaak, PE, CVA: Right. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Uh, transportation. Uh, especially in the public, which you do.

I mean, you know that you've done that your whole career. So, um, it, it was a really good experience for us to, to have you involved and, um, maybe the, the sole example of us using a consultant with, um, absolutely no regrets. 

Mark Isaak, PE, CVA: Appreciate that. I appreciate that. Um, I didn't, I didn't know I was gonna sit thin ice, actually.

You know, it's like, I think that's one of the, um, the whole differentiators with our company is that we are practitioners. We've done what you're doing, um, at large companies, at mid middle-sized companies. So, um, you know, it's, it, it kind of comes naturally to us. Um, and I think given my background and our [00:28:00] shared background.

I can ask some questions that are provocative and you might say, oh, you know, I'm not gonna just discard that question. 'cause I've known Mark for a long time. Right? Yeah. Um, although I wouldn't say that we have very many, it's instances like that in with PGA. It's like the people have come, it's really a matter of sorting, sorting the opportunities out and, and then putting a, putting 'em to a schedule.

Gordon Greene, PE: Yeah. I think the last thing we had on here was just about taking it seriously. Um. I think you mentioned, uh, it's probably somewhat discouraging for you to help a company put a strategic plan together and come back three years maybe to check on 'em and find out it's sitting on a shelf. They never touched it.

It was a total waste of your time and their time. Um, that also never crossed my mind to do it that way. That, that seems silly to us. So, uh, we, we've always been very proud of, we, we put the plan together, we break the thing down. We meet regularly and 

Mark Isaak, PE, CVA: get it 

done. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Getting [00:29:00] the thing done is, it's not an option.

Mark Isaak, PE, CVA: I mean, didn't you, didn't you guys like finish your first one in like three years? 

Gordon Greene, PE: Yeah, I think after, uh, so we, we developed it in 2018, so we started in 2019, so it was supposed to go from 2019, I guess through 2023, and we started our next one in 2020. So I guess in four year. Yeah, basically in four years.

But we were pretty much done at three. I think we only had a few straggling things in that fourth year. Um, and we also were developing the next plan in the fourth year so that it started in 2023. So 

Mark Isaak, PE, CVA: and so to, to speak directly to what you brought up is, uh, that firms, they're so. Much advantage, a strategic plan can do to the morale of the company.

If you, let's say you have a, you know, 200 person company and you invite 20 people to do the facilitation and uh, to do the actual planning session, they go through it and they get fired up. They're [00:30:00] excited about it. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Mm-hmm. 

Mark Isaak, PE, CVA: Because it sounds really good. And then what happens? Nothing. Mm-hmm. Um, they get cynical about strategic planning.

They get cynical about the company. Right. And, um. You guys are a poster child against that. I mean, it's, people know that things are gonna happen. That, I mean, they come to the meeting and they know they're gonna be asked, what's your progress on this? And are we, we gotta finish our plan in five years. Um, this last plan you guys did is really a transformational.

Plan in my, in my opinion, because you're going from, you know, where you were to this really statewide, now you've left the state. Um, and that was, that was one of the goals. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Well, it was to be ready to do it. But I mean, to our point that's point a few minutes ago, like, yeah, 

Mark Isaak, PE, CVA: you, you've hit it. 

Gordon Greene, PE: We kind of like you, you don't wanna get too far ahead of yourself.

So when we were developing this plan, that topic came up pretty early on. Um, what do we, uh, do we want to do? We wanna include getting [00:31:00] outside of Florida in this plan. And we decided. No, let's dominate the state of Florida. That was, that was our terminology before we start getting outta the state. So maybe our plan, let's, 

Mark Isaak, PE, CVA: well, let's, so this is a great example of the opportunistic.

Gordon Greene, PE: Yeah, exactly 

Mark Isaak, PE, CVA: right. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Because we all agreed, well, let's just, that'll be the next plan. We'll dominate here. That'll be the next plan, but definitely the next plan. So it wasn't like 20 years from now. We'll see. It was, was we'll definitely have that in the next plan. Well then Richard says, I'm going to Tennessee.

And we go, well, we, we love Richard. We don't. We don't want you to leave and having you work re like purely remote seems kind of like he would, it wouldn't have, I don't think fit for him long term. And we know we wanna do it anyway. Yeah. So the timing's not exactly right, 

Mark Isaak, PE, CVA: but Tennessee is a good market too.

Gordon Greene, PE: Well, you know, 

um, I can't tell me how many times we told this, uh, story while we were up there meeting TDOT folks. Um. We look like geniuses. We are certainly not [00:32:00] geniuses. We had pure luck. It was just his family decided now is their time to move to Tennessee, not based on TDOT work program, based on what they wanted to do.

Mark Isaak, PE, CVA: Right? 

Gordon Greene, PE: Uh, and we get there and get ready to like, okay, let's meet some people. And lo and behold, you know, TDOT's going through some big changes and, and their work programs increasing and we're sitting there looking like. Coming was just right. 

Mark Isaak, PE, CVA: It was in the plan. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Oh, all part of the plan. 

Mark Isaak, PE, CVA: Yeah. And so those are the, those are the positive and momentum aspects of actually, um, talking about living the plan and doing it.

The other side of that is you do nothing and the people, uh, resenting. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Yeah. 

Mark Isaak, PE, CVA: And then, um, again, one of my passions is why are people cynical about strategic planning? There's your answer. 

Yes. 

I, I have had clients, I, I actually started saying, do you really wanna spend this money? Because, uh, you know, I, [00:33:00] but when, when someone starts, uh, bringing up that they want a double in size, they, they don't have a strategy.

They just want a number. Right. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Right. 

Mark Isaak, PE, CVA: Whether it's revenue or people, um, to me, that should be an outcome of your plan. Yes. Right. And so I get a little wary about the, those kind of engagements because. You know, let's say we put together a plan and it sits on the shelf, guess what? They, they bad mouth the consultant.

Gordon Greene, PE: Your plans suck, man. 

Mark Isaak, PE, CVA: Exactly, exactly. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Um, yeah, I think one thing we haven't really talked about that, uh, I feel like we do a pretty good job, pure PGA, is, is really bringing the whole company into, like, we, we met, we meet regularly as a vision committee, right. And we break it down and we, and we try to get some things accomplished, but.

We also provide updates to the whole company on a, we have a quarterly staff meeting, so that's always, um, really the first thing in every staff [00:34:00] meeting is kind of an update on where we're at really with that year's goals. We don't go through the whole plan, but um, we do obviously have annual goals that are pulled in from the strategic plan and everybody knows what those are.

Um, I think folks appreciate kind of knowing where we stand on it and that we are making progress. And there was a point in us talking about it and setting the plan and, 

and we're 

doing it and we're, yeah, we're, we're making progress and getting there. 

Mark Isaak, PE, CVA: And what, what better way to build planning into your business culture than to come up with a strategic plan when you're 40 people and then have another one when you're 120 people five years later?

And, and have that be part of your business culture. Of course you're gonna, that was kind of a PBS&J. Of course, we're gonna do another plan because it's part of our culture that we, we do that. And you guys started that lot earlier than most firms. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Yeah. Co culture is huge with a lot of things like that.

Um, when we talk about quality, uh, which I know we're not talking much about [00:35:00] today, but, um, sometimes we're noted for quality, humble brag, I guess. Um. But internally, there's no, like, should we or shouldn't we? Like, it's just part of the, 

Mark Isaak, PE, CVA: it's like reading, 

Gordon Greene, PE: of course you're going to do it. Yeah. That's just, you do it and then you QC it and then you submit it.

Um, what other way is there and yeah. Hopefully, uh, years from now and even Hiren and I are gone and other leaders, like we move on to the next true next generation of leadership, it'll just be like, well, of course we're gonna, of course we 

do 

update the plan. Like that one's done. We gotta do the next one.

What else would we do? Yeah. That, that should be the goal. 

Mark Isaak, PE, CVA: And you know, like in some ways did, didn't the, the leadership and training program come out of like strategic planning is about, I dunno if it was around retention of existing staff or training and development staff? 

Gordon Greene, PE: Well, 

more training and developing.

Um, because one of the, now this was the first plan. Yes. It was [00:36:00] one of the last goals we did, but we got it done. Um. Even then, part of the goal was freeing up time from company leadership. So how do you do that? Well, someone's gotta get trained up and come up to do the things that they're doing. And so that, that was the, the basic idea was to get that done.

Mark Isaak, PE, CVA: Absolutely. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Yeah. But of course, leadership didn't have enough time to set, set the thing up. Uh, well, I've talked to Chris Smith about that in the Future Podcast, have set a thing. Um, but yeah, that, that was part of that. And of course, that goal. Carried over in other manifestations in the second plan. How do we free up company leadership to 

Mark Isaak, PE, CVA: Yeah, that's 

Gordon Greene, PE: always to do some of the things on this plan.

Mark Isaak, PE, CVA: Yeah. That's always a challenge because um, 

Gordon Greene, PE: I'm not sure how successful we've done that 

Mark Isaak, PE, CVA: as founders and owners. You've either working in the company or you're working on the company and you gotta find time to work on, you 

Gordon Greene, PE: gotta work on it. Yeah, exactly. Easier said than done. 

Mark Isaak, PE, CVA: Yeah. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Does podcasting count as working on the company?

Mark Isaak, PE, CVA: Sure. Sure. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Good. 

Mark Isaak, PE, CVA: Especially after five. [00:37:00] 

Gordon Greene, PE: All right. Anything else on your mind? 

Mark Isaak, PE, CVA: Uh, I think we've covered, um, the things that I, I wanted to mention and, um, the experience I've had with PGA. I think we've brought out the, the things that it, that it's really a pleasure working with you and your team because you get after it and as a consultant.

We want our clients to be successful. And you guys are like a poster child for that. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Yeah. I think that's why I appreciate you being a part of it. You're, you're a dreamer like me, so we can dream up a bunch of stuff and we'll let, we'll let Joe shoot us down and we'll get to, we'll get to the real answer.

Somewhere in between those two things. 

Mark Isaak, PE, CVA: I kind of changed that to 

red light green, light yellow, you know, and I'm a green all the time. 

Yeah, 

green, green, green. So, or you, 

Gordon Greene, PE: I think Joe's like a deep, dark yellow. 

Mark Isaak, PE, CVA: He's, yeah. Amber 

Gordon Greene, PE: burnt bumper. Something like that. 

Mark Isaak, PE, CVA: Yeah, definitely not red, but definitely in the yellow.

Gordon Greene, PE: Wish Joe was here. Make sure he listens to this one. 

Mark Isaak, PE, CVA: Yeah. 

Gordon Greene, PE: All right, [00:38:00] well, we'll wrap up our time here. I really appreciate, appreciate you coming and, and speaking with me on this stuff and all the way from Texas. 

Mark Isaak, PE, CVA: Yeah, I really, I've enjoyed it. 

Yeah. 

Thanks for having me. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Yep. It's, it's, uh, we, we really enjoy working with you.

Uh, look forward to many more years. 

Mark Isaak, PE, CVA: Me too. 

Gordon Greene, PE: Alright, so that'll do it for us here at, uh, breaking the ICE. Uh, we'll see you next time. We always end these podcasts with a solid go PGA and we try to say it at the same time. Okay? 

Mark Isaak, PE, CVA: Okay. 

Alright, so on count of three. 1, 2, 3, go. P-G-A-P-G-A.