HR Unfiltered: Hiring Tools and Hard Conversations

In this episode of PGA’s Breaking the ICE podcast, host Gordon Greene, PE sits down with Human Resources Director Kaitlyn Balsinger, SHRM-CP to explore the evolving world of HR.

Kaitlyn discusses the tools and programs PGA has intentionally implemented to support our growth and employee success. She also offers practical advice for navigating tough conversations and shares insight into the recruiting strategies and unique initiatives that help us attract exceptional talent, strengthen our team, and foster a thriving workplace culture.

Tune in to hear from:

• Gordon Greene, PE – Co-Founder & Executive Vice President (Host): He’s the embodiment of a competitive spirit, and that motivation has fueled his work as an engineer, business owner, and civic volunteer for the past 25 years. He loves talking with people about where those passions overlap! Come join the conversation!
• Kaitlyn Balsinger, SHRM-CP – Human Resources Director (Guest): With extensive experience in talent acquisition and human resources within the AEC industry, Kaitlyn is passionate about helping people grow and succeed at every stage of their careers. As Human Resources Director, she leads recruitment and employee development efforts, guiding professionals from entry-level positions to executive leadership roles. Known for her organization, creativity, and enthusiasm, Kaitlyn thrives in fast-paced environments and is dedicated to building strong teams and fostering a positive workplace culture.

Connect with us on social media:

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/patelgreene 

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/patelgreene/

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/patelgreene

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@patelgreene

Transcript

Gordon: [00:00:00] Welcome to Breaking the Ice. We're Patel, Greene & Associates, and we're here to tell stories about our three favorite things: business, culture, and engineering. Let's get to it

Coming up 

Kaitlyn: Recruiting's just like dating. You're trying it out, you're finding the right person 

Gordon: But we want people to be successful somewhere- 

Kaitlyn: Yeah 

Gordon: ... even if they can't be here. 

Kaitlyn: How am I gonna show up? How am I gonna be a different type of HR person? 

Gordon: As from a practical standpoint, like, they could be maybe your client one day, for Pete's sake.

Yeah. So welcome back to PGA's Breaking the Ice podcast. I'm excited to, uh, be talking to Kaitlyn Balsinger today, our HR director. We're gonna get into several things. Uh, uh, not to mention, uh, recruiting philosophy, workforce development, uh, and a lot of the things that, uh, she helps us accomplish here at PGA.

So welcome. 

Kaitlyn: Thank you. I'm excited to be here. 

Gordon: Glad to have you here in good old [00:01:00] Bartow. Um, maybe just to get us started, a little introduction, uh, who you are, a little bit of background and, um, you and I both can talk a little bit about how you came to be here at PGA. It's a good story. 

Kaitlyn: Yeah, it is. Um, so I came up in recruiting.

I worked at a staffing agency in Jacksonville and made my way here to Orlando, I guess not here, but in Orlando. Um, eventually landed at a AEC staffing agency and had my days in the agency life, was ready to kinda move in-house. Went to work at a consulting firm in Orlando and kinda just worked my way up through recruiting.

Eventually, a talent acquisition manager and was looking for the next step. COVID really shook sh- stuff up in, um, in recruiting, so kinda kept moving until I found my home and eventually landed here at PGA. 

Gordon: We were, we were glad to have you. Um, maybe we'll, uh, kind of do that story on how you [00:02:00] came to be at PGA.

Um, and it starts with us doing our second strategic plan. 

Kaitlyn: Mm-hmm. 

Gordon: Um, and maybe I've covered this some on this podcast, but, uh, going through all these great ideas and what we were gonna do, uh, and after everything we go, "Well, who's gonna do that? Nobody's got time to do that" Um, and so we said, "You know what?

Let's make mission number one to hire a recruiter" It started with just internal recruiter- Yeah ... was the idea, and matter of fact, don't even put that in the plan. Let's do that right now. So I remember leaving the, the planning session, um, and putting the post, learning how to do a LinkedIn post- ... 'cause you didn't work here yet.

Um, so had to, uh, I'm sure I had marketing. I can't remember. It's been a while now, but we figured it out. Um, got the post out there and- 

Kaitlyn: On the old website. 

Gordon: Old, yes, old website. Yeah. All that good stuff. Yeah. Um, and, uh, I think in doing that and having internal conversations, [00:03:00] uh, your name came up, and while we had the post out there, which maybe you were able to take a look at, um, we were, like, literally, like, a day late or something- Mm-hmm

like that, right? By the time, um, I reached out to you on LinkedIn, you were, uh, what, two days into a new job or something like that. Like, you just started. 

Kaitlyn: I think I had 

literally just accepted a new job and, uh, yeah, somebody referred me at the same time. I was, like, international. I was in Europe somewhere, and then I come back and just took the offer and ran with it.

Um, and I, I knew it wasn't gonna work out. Like, I remember my 30-day and my 60-day check-in with my boss, I was like, "This doesn't quite feel right" And I think I reached out to you somewhere in that timeframe. Um, preparing for that interview, I don't know if I've ever told you this, I listened to you on another podcast.

Oh. 

Gordon: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's right. I did a podcast for that position. Yeah. Yeah. 

Kaitlyn: Yeah. You were like, "We're looking for this talent management director" And I know-

Gordon: Worked 

Kaitlyn: I know listening to that podcast I was [00:04:00] like, "This is it. This is the job for me" 

Gordon: Yeah. 

Kaitlyn: You know? Um, and then I resigned from that other job on my 91st day.

You know, they always say the 90 days if you make it or break it, and then I came to work here and, and the fir- the role was a talent management director at first. That was kind of where the strategic plan- 

Gordon: Yeah 

Kaitlyn: ... led, and then we quick- quickly realized, well, maybe this is an HR director and not just recruiting- 

Gordon: Yeah

Kaitlyn: focused. 

Gordon: That was a, a battle I lost. Uh, maybe I was getting too cute with it. Um, and I, I don't always like doing things, um- the same exact way other firms do it. I certainly want, didn't wanna do HR- Mm ... the way other firms do HR. Um, so I wanted to change the name. And we did try. We, we... You were our talent management director out of the gate.

Kaitlyn: Mm-hmm. 

Gordon: Um, and that just confused people too much, so.

Kaitlyn: It really did, yeah. 

Gordon: So yeah, we, we gave up on that. Um, but it was interesting, you know, y- you weren't available upfront, and um, [00:05:00] so we moved ahead, and we, we did interview a few people. Um- 

Kaitlyn: I'm pretty sure I referred a couple people. Like- 

Gordon: Yeah, 

you might have.

And, and some of them were, were pretty good, and some of them, you know, whatever, the normal hiring process there. Mm-hmm. Uh, nobody really, like, jumped out. We didn't send any offers or anything. Um, and then, uh, it just, it's a good lesson in sometimes when you're feeling a little frustrated 'cause you're not filling filling, um, a position as fast as you want, especially one like that, that was very important to us.

Mm-hmm. And we really wanted to have that done as, as soon as possible 'cause it would allow us to do some other things. Um, but we were delayed because, you know, you were meant to be at PGA. 

Kaitlyn: Right. 

Gordon: Um, so it was nice when we found out, uh, that, okay, well, maybe you're not so happy over there, and, and you might be available for the job after all.

Kaitlyn: Mm-hmm. 

Gordon: Uh, you know, we got the interview in, and, and you, you rocked it. And um, I think by then we had already kinda figured out it, it needed to be more than a [00:06:00] recruiter. But you know, even through interviewing you and what your personal aspirations are or were, um, and probably what we really needed was not just a recruiter.

Although, uh, looking back, I am very glad that we hired an HR director with a heavy recruiting background-

Kaitlyn: Mm-hmm 

Gordon: ... 'cause we really did need that. Um, but uh, that's ultimately what we came away with is, okay, we're- I guess we were 110, 120 people then I think right 

Kaitlyn: under 100. I w- Okay ... I'm pretty sure I was in the 90s Okay.

Gordon: Yeah, I guess that's 

true. 

Kaitlyn: Mm-hmm. 

Gordon: Um 

Kaitlyn: But likewise for me, you know, like I was advancing in the recruiting world and I, I felt like I pretty much mastered recruiting as much as you can- Yeah ... if you're consistently doing it. Of course, there's always things to learn, but I, funny enough, like two positions prior, had always said, "One day I'm gonna be an HR director", and little did I know it was gonna reach a lot faster than one day.

Like, very soon you're gonna be an HR director and 

Gordon: [00:07:00] Yeah. And, and I wonder if, um, that was just perfect for us because we'd never had one. 

Kaitlyn: Mm-hmm. 

Gordon: Um, you'd never been one. 

Kaitlyn: Mm-hmm. 

Gordon: And it gave us a chance to build that out the way we wanted to. So in other words, we're not hiring someone that's been an HR director somewhere for 20 years, and they wanna do it the way they did that at other firms.

That probably would've been a turn-off for me, and there would've been a constant, some friction there. 

Kaitlyn: Yeah. 

Gordon: Um, but you know, with you coming in, it was let we figured it out together- 

Kaitlyn: Yeah ... 

Gordon: in the best way that fit PGA, which I think we do things a little bit differently. 

Kaitlyn: And in the same sense, I'd, I'd worked for many HR directors, and I kind of had that mindset.

We, I'd never talked about it, but I was like, "I wanna be an HR director differently than maybe ones that are talked about or not in a positive way", you know? 

Gordon: Right. 

Kaitlyn: Um, because y- you should want to go to HR, and they should feel like a partner, and like you should trust and confide in them. And I felt like I'm a pretty trustworthy person, and a [00:08:00] lot of people confide in me, so it kind of naturally happened.

Gordon: Yeah, I mean, I think that's why we tried to go with a different name. You know- Yeah ... talent management, uh, just not that human resources sounds negative, but over the years and- Yeah ... uh, through, you know, TV shows like The Office, I mean, you get this- Yeah ... this weird stigma- Oh, no. 

Kaitlyn: You're going to HR ... about it.

Gordon: Right. 

Kaitlyn: Yeah. 

Gordon: Um, where talent management was sp- meant to have a more positive spin. But that, uh, we had to go away from that, and so now the onus is on us just to c- you know, communicate and build the culture that, you know, HR is good. 

Kaitlyn: Mm-hmm. 

Gordon: It's good, uh- Mm-hmm ... and, and here to help, even though, um, we'll get into at some point in this podcast, sometimes the, you know, the days aren't fun, and that's part of the job, too.

But, uh, but the vast majority of it is we're, we're here to help the, the experience of working at PGA be awesome. 

Kaitlyn: Yeah. So- I always wanted people to think of me as Kaitlyn, you know? 

Gordon: Yeah. 

Kaitlyn: Not as [00:09:00] HR, like- 

Gordon: Right 

Kaitlyn: ... "Oh, no, that's HR coming down the hallway." Like, "Oh, it's Kaitlyn," you know?

Gordon: Exactly. 

Kaitlyn: "She's just like one of us."

Gordon: Yeah. She can help me. 

Kaitlyn: Yeah. Except she's HR. 

Gordon: All right, so let's talk a little bit about, um- Uh, some things we have done that, uh, well, we've done them in our own way. Um, we knew that we had to build some systems out. We were growing and we had a, a strategic plan to really, really grow, and we're, we're working that plan now.

Kaitlyn: Mm-hmm. 

Gordon: Um, but at, at some point, n-no matter how I don't know what the word would be. Um, you know, h- how loose or how much you wanna focus on culture and how important people are. Um, at some point you need a system, and we were starting to feel that in some ways. Like, um, uh, w- well, we're gonna, we can talk about our, um, our ac- applicant, uh, tracking system, performance management, things that worked fine when you get 40 or 50 people- Mm-hmm

starting to get a [00:10:00] little unwieldy when you've got, you know, 150 people, so. 

Kaitlyn: Yeah, I remember- 

You took a 

Gordon: lot on there, um, uh, from the beginning and you're still, uh, all that stuff's in place now, but still, you know, big part of your job. So talk a little about that whole process. 

Kaitlyn: And still changing, honestly- 

Gordon: Yes, yeah

Kaitlyn: to this day. But yeah, I remember in my interview, I was like, "Okay, well, you guys are gonna need this and this and this and this and-" 

Gordon: Never 

heard of it. 

Kaitlyn: I was like, "Well, one day we're gonna need this too," and like, "What do you think about that?" And I think just like you're saying, you're like, "Okay, well, let's do it.

You know, we need to grow. Uh, we need to hire all these people. We need to fill these offices. We've got this big plan to grow to 300 people." And I was like, "Let's do it." So I knew from day one, like, we had to get an applicant tracking system. Recruiting was a main focus. How are we gonna get people in? Um, we've talked about the old website on other podcast episodes, but the old website didn't feed to, like, LinkedIn or Indeed or any of that.

So getting a system that could advertise our [00:11:00] jobs and get our name out there a little bit more, like, that was, like, STEP one, and we did that and it, it worked well. You know, like any change in new systems- Mm-hmm ... and processes, people caught onto it and eventually learned how to use it. And then I was emailing around PDFs for now 100 people twice a year and said, "Maybe we need a performance-

management system. This is a lot of work." Um, and that one kinda came naturally too when we started to build out other processes, like then training and development rose in priority, and we did a learning management system and, um, now we're kind of thinking through, like, how those systems talk to each other and maybe f- falling into one central place.

Um, payroll and everything like that, you know, recently moving to ADP. Yeah. And that's kind of, like, where we're at now. 

Gordon: Yeah, um, it's one of the things that, that, you know, I've been battling and we, I guess, the leadership been batting a little, [00:12:00] battling a little bit, and I write about it every now and then in our newsletter, is, um, this sort of feeling of going corporate.

Um, and, you know, some of these systems, it's hard, it's hard to, um, to avoid that perception, like man went to ADP for payroll. Well, that's what the big companies do.

Kaitlyn: Mm-hmm. 

Gordon: Even having an HR director, that's what the big comp- so 

Kaitlyn: Mm-hmm ... 

Gordon: um, I think we've done a pretty good job of communicating, like, and this is what's really important, not only this stuff, but really with anything, um, and maybe is, uh, helps that is there's a why.

There's- we're not doing it because we're getting bigger. I mean-

Kaitlyn: Right 

Gordon: ... in a way we are- 

Kaitlyn: Yeah 

Gordon: ... but that's not the why. The why is the old way sucked. It wasn't working.

Kaitlyn: Mm-hmm. 

Gordon: Um, uh, it was, uh, super inefficient. There's a, there's a better way to do, you know, performance reviews. There's a better way to keep track of all these applicants that we have, and not only that, but getting the word out to the applicants-

Kaitlyn: Mm-hmm

Gordon: um, is super important, and [00:13:00] what we were doing wasn't working, and guess what? They sell systems that help you do that. Um, and so, um, I think we've always done a pretty good job of explaining like, "Okay, you're gonna have to go into the system now, um, and it, it may feel, uh, a little more formal than what you're used to, but it's, it's really gonna help you, and there is a reason that we did it."

So, and you were a big part of that communication. 

Kaitlyn: Yeah, I think the intention, just like the intention behind having a position that I filled, and then the intention behind like having systems and processes, it's also what's really important. Um, I was really thoughtful when picking the systems out that they all talk to each other- 

Gordon: Mm-hmm

Kaitlyn: and if I wasn't an HR director, I would be okay with going in and clicking around and can figure things out on my own, and didn't need to go watch a 30-minute webinar on how do I add my goals again, you know? Um, so that was really my thought process in, in making sure that, like you said, we weren't doing it just 'cause other corporate [00:14:00] jobs and people do it.

But, uh, we're really being intentional, you know? Eventually you grow to a size where you can't do things the way you used to do them anymore, so what does that look like when we- 

Gordon: Right 

Kaitlyn: ... move forward, and how does that align with our strategic plan? I was, I was always thinking about that too. 

Gordon: Yeah, and I think with anything we build, whether it's a, like an HR system like this, or our project managers have to do, you know, some sort of financial work on their projects, um- Those aren't things that people always love to spend their time on 

Kaitlyn: Mm-hmm 

Gordon: There's no way around that

Kaitlyn: Mm-hmm 

Gordon: Um, so we wanna design them or set them up in a way where people can get in and out so we, we get the value of the thing.

You know, do, go do your performance review, uh, or your goal setting, uh, or go in there and, and check on these applicants that came through and review their resume. 

Kaitlyn: Mm-hmm. 

Gordon: Um, but make sure we're doing a good job. Like, your group, your group can spend the time to make sure that everyone else can just kinda come in, do what needs to be done, and come back out so that it's not such a dread- [00:15:00] 

Kaitlyn: Yeah

Gordon: on, 

um, on the thing. And that way people actually do it- Yeah ... 'cause we, we need them to do it. 

Kaitlyn: Well, the great thing about systems is they send notifications. So it's not me poking everyone like, "Go look at this resume, and go do your review form, and go take this training" 

Gordon: Mm-hmm 

Kaitlyn: You know? So it, it feels a little different, um, when the system's kind of working the process for you too because- 

Gordon: Yeah

Kaitlyn: it, I, I hope that the employees in our teams know like, "Oh, okay. I know why I've gotta go do this, and this is the thought process behind that" Yeah. 

Gordon: Yep. And we won't get into all your alternatives analysis that you did. I think-

Kaitlyn: Mm-hmm 

Gordon: ... um, uh, I don't know if we can share that in the show notes. But I'm a real podcaster.

Um, or, you know, I'm sure you're, you're free. If anybody listening to this podcast is like, "I think we need an ATS. I wonder what one they're using"

Kaitlyn: Mm-hmm 

Gordon: ... um, they can reach out to you I'm sure.

Kaitlyn: Yeah. 

Gordon: Yeah. 

Kaitlyn: Absolutely. 

Gordon: Um, let's talk about, um, we'll stick this right [00:16:00] in the middle. 

Kaitlyn: Okay. Um- Sandwich method 

Gordon: Yes, 

so exactly.

Um, tough conversations. So, uh, I, I, I like to think we've always been a company that is, um, you know, more or less good at having the tough conversations when they, when they need to be had. Mm-hmm. And before you were here that- Was either on like me or Hiren or, um, you know, someone's supervisor and a leader or something like that, and that's still the case.

But you get to be a part of- ... pretty much all those conversations now.

Kaitlyn: Yeah, exactly. 

Gordon: Um, 'cause that falls in your, in your purview. Um, so maybe talk a little bit about, um, providing those tools, you know, helping managers get through those tough conversations, maybe how we, um, what we can do on a daily basis to help avoid having to have- Yeah

have, have, maybe have the much less tough conversation to avoid the, the really tough conversation. 

Kaitlyn: Yeah. I think it [00:17:00] all comes down to communication, you know? And everyone always says that, "Well, if you communicate more, then you won't have to have the tough conversation." But it, it's not just that, it's like how you're communicating.

Um, I'm sure others can relate. I've had my fair share of bad bosses and really great bosses or even your personal life, like someone you look up to that communicates really well, and someone where you're like, "I'm never gonna talk to someone like that," you know? And I think that was a, a lot of what I did preparing for this role too, was like, how am I gonna show up?

How am I gonna be a different type of HR person? And it really came down to communication. I want someone to feel like okay with leaving a conversation, even if it's tough, not in tears and wanting to go- 

Gordon: Right 

Kaitlyn: ... put their resume on LinkedIn immediately. Um, and it, you know, we're all human, we don't make the perfect decision every single day, but having the conversation of giving real-time feedback is, is what's really important.

Um, and that always doesn't work, you know. Sometimes we're [00:18:00] busy and tasks fly, and then weeks go by, and months go by, and you've realized you've been frustrated five times at-

Gordon: Mm-hmm 

Kaitlyn: ... someone for doing whatever, you know? And then you come to me, and you're like, "This is a problem." 

Gordon: Mm-hmm. 

Kaitlyn: So we've got a couple methods of what we do internally.

You know, we use coaching notes. That was, um, a mentor in my HR realm kind of recommended that to me, and then we have, um, of course PIPs and all the other, you know, termination STEPs. 

Gordon: Mm-hmm. 

Kaitlyn: Um, but coaching notes are really helpful for us. It's kind of just like a knock, knock, hello. You know, you need a little redirection, you need a little help.

Um, it's written down and kind of given out like, here's where you can improve, and here's what we expect for you to do to improve in those ways. And those go really well. You know, I mean, it's never a fun conversation to have, but I think people, well, I hope people appreciate at least getting the feedback instead of getting a PIP or getting fired or something like that.

Gordon: [00:19:00] Mm-hmm. 

Kaitlyn: Is having the opportunity to make the improvements. Um, no jerks here. So I think we also try to communicate it in a way that's like helpful and not, um, you know, coming down on people. 

Gordon: Well, I think, I know one thing we've talked about for sure, this company's full of helpful people 

Kaitlyn: Mm-hmm 

Gordon: Um, so even in those tough conversations, we still really want to help people, even if we're a little bit frustrated.

Maybe, maybe as a manager I haven't done my job of communicating that feedback well enough 

Kaitlyn: Mm-hmm 

Gordon: So maybe I even feel a little guilty about that. But at the end of the day, like I'm, maybe I'm frustrated with someone's job performance, but I still want them to succeed. Ideally, I want them to su- succeed here 

Kaitlyn: Yeah 

Gordon: Um, and so the, um Those conversations are, are super-duper important, and we go into them even if it is, like, a fully documented thing, which there's no way around having those conversations where it doesn't feel like [00:20:00] I'm in trouble.

Kaitlyn: I'm 

in the principal's office. 

Gordon: Yeah. 

Kaitlyn: Yeah, here we go.

Gordon: It's, it's 

impossible to avoid that. 

Kaitlyn: Mm-hmm. 

Gordon: But I think the way you approach it and the way you help our managers approach it of, uh, this is meant to be helpful. It really, really is. This is not a paper trail to, to something else that's coming. 

Kaitlyn: Mm-hmm. 

Gordon: Um, sometimes it ends that way, but that's never our intent.

You know, it's-

Kaitlyn: Right 

Gordon: ... here's, um, here's some problems. Here's, here's how to fix those problems. 

Kaitlyn: Yeah. 

Gordon: You do those things and it's great. And, and, um, I guess probably like most companies we've had, um, mixed results. You know? Sometimes those conversations, even if they were, like, tough, still in the moment they're effective.

Kaitlyn: Mm-hmm. 

Gordon: Someone makes some changes and they're great.

Kaitlyn: Yeah. 

Gordon: And we never look back, you know? 

Kaitlyn: Yeah. 

Gordon: Um, and then, you know, sometimes people just either aren't able to, or at the end of the day don't really want to-

Kaitlyn: Mm-hmm 

Gordon: ... make the changes, and, you know, tougher conversations happen, I guess, sometimes, but- 

Kaitlyn: Yeah, exactly.

I mean, [00:21:00] it, it, it's never fun- Yeah ... you know? But, um, it- I think if you do it in the right way, it's, it's not as bad as it, it seems it's gonna be, you know? Uh, a lot of the times when I'm, like, talking a supervisor off the ledge or helping them think through how they're gonna communicate it, um, you know, it's like, "Okay.

Well, have you, have you told them you're upset?" "Well, no. I've been too busy." It's like, "Okay. Well, let's give them a chance." You know? Like, we're, we're all kind people here, so, like, let's give them a chance. And then it's up to the person- 

Gordon: Mm-hmm 

Kaitlyn: ... you know, to, to make that decision, to take that feedback, to really understand that they have some ways to improve.

And, and at the end of the day, it's their career, so how they wanna, you know, see that pan out is, is really on them. But we also do have a responsibility to help, you know, guide them back to the water- 

Gordon: Right 

Kaitlyn: ... and help them understand why they maybe fell off or wherever they went, you know? So I, I think about that too, and then, um, you know, a- at the [00:22:00] end of the day it's just talking through it with someone.

Like, "Hey, maybe I've done this before, and here's how I came out of this situation." Yeah. Um, I found that to be pretty successful, too. Not just, "This is what you're doing wrong, and here's how you're gonna fix it," and then- 

Gordon: And you got two weeks. 

Kaitlyn: Yeah. Here you go. Yeah. No pressure. 

Gordon: Yeah. Um, and it- we obviously want all those things to, to work and be effective, and sometimes they're not.

And then, um, we find ourselves, you know, having those, those really tough conversations when maybe we just figure out, "Well, this is not, this is not gonna work." 

Kaitlyn: Mm-hmm. 

Gordon: Um, and, uh, always try to remind folks, I have to remind myself, too, when it comes down to those situations, um, if someone's not being successful here, we're not doing them any favors by, um- letting them stay.

Kaitlyn: Yeah 

Gordon: Um, so even though, um, uh, I was just having a conversation earlier today, um, with my mentee. And we talked [00:23:00] about that. You know, some- someone comes in, um, you know, they're never really kinda catching on or, or picking things up, and you have the coaching note and you try to help them. Um, and they just still, you know, even though they looks like they're trying- 

Kaitlyn: Mm-hmm

Gordon: um, just don't quite get there. And cert- well, I, I don't even think this applies to entry-level. It really should apply to anyone.

Kaitlyn: Mm. 

Gordon: Um, it's not always that easy, but it really should. Um, and then you let them go. 

Kaitlyn: Yeah. 

Gordon: And it feels like, 

man, what a- 

Kaitlyn: Be free. Find something else ... 

Gordon: what a waste of time. And when we were having the conversation, I'm like, "It feels like a, it's a waste of time for everybody."

Kaitlyn: Mm-hmm. 

Gordon: Um, but my wise mentee pointed out that, not really. Um, maybe it is for us at the end of the day. You know, we, we set out to hire someone good and, and, and them be successful here. It didn't work out, so kind of in a way it ended up being a waste of our time. 

Kaitlyn: Mm-hmm. 

Gordon: But not for them. They- 

Kaitlyn: Not for them

Gordon: hopefully learned something. Yeah. And even if they didn't l- learn a whole [00:24:00] lot, what they did learn is, um, I gotta do something differently- 

Kaitlyn: Mm-hmm 

Gordon: ... in this next job to be successful. And we can hope that that happens, right? Like- 

Kaitlyn: Or do something different altogether. Yeah. 

Gordon: Yeah, yeah. Right. 

Kaitlyn: Mm-hmm. 

Gordon: I mean, if it's, yeah, exactly.

If you're kinda entry-level you can make that sort of decision. But- 

Kaitlyn: Mm-hmm 

Gordon: ... um, so it really isn't a, a waste for them, which is kind of, you know, a silver lining to s- a situation like that. But, um, ultimately it's a kindness to help them, you know, find that way. It's a bummer that they can't be successful here, but we want people to be successful somewhere- 

Kaitlyn: Yeah

Gordon: even if it can't be here. 

Kaitlyn: When I first got into recruiting, everyone always told me, like, "Recruiting's just like dating. You're trying it out, you're finding the right person, you're matchmaking." And I was, like, so young and didn't have that much dating experience. But now that I have a lot more dating experience, I'm like, it really is, you know?

And kinda the point I'm getting to is breakups, you know? 

Gordon: Yeah. 

Kaitlyn: Hopefully you, if you break up with someone you learn something about that relationship. And I [00:25:00] think of that in the same way with hiring, you know. Maybe they lasted three months, six months, a year. You know, hopefully they learn something.

Hopefully we learn something. Maybe the role isn't what we expected it to be. Yeah. Maybe we're looking for something different in someone than what we initially put in the job posting. And so it's a good reflection point, you know? I think- 

Gordon: Mm. Mm 

Kaitlyn: ... I hope that anyone that is going through a tough conversation or a, a termination or anything like that looks in the mirror and well, as well and says, like, "What could have I done differently?"

Because it, it really is on, on the leadership and it's on the person to make the decision to, you know, fit the role, do the job, or change the role and find who we need to hire. 

Gordon: Yeah. And I guess last point on this, then we'll move on to more positive topics. But, um, uh, and we don't really have to coach this here, 'cause again, everybody, um, is just generally kind.

Nobody's out to make someone feel bad about themselves. Um, but it's an incredibly small community.

Kaitlyn: Oh, 

yeah. 

Gordon: [00:26:00] Um, and so it definitely doesn't do you any favors, uh, even if you have to make a tough decision like that- 

Kaitlyn: Mm-hmm 

Gordon: ... um, to do it the right way. Uh, it's the right thing to do anyway, but also as from a practical standpoint, like they could be, I mean, they could be your client one day, for Pete's sake.

Kaitlyn: Yeah. 

Gordon: So, um, be nice. 

Kaitlyn: Mm-hmm. 

Gordon: Um, all right. So let's circle back to, um recruiting and career fairs. And so we talked a little bit about, you know, you had a heavy recruiting background, and we talked about some of the systems that we, uh, put in place to help us do that. So like the ATS, for example- 

Kaitlyn: Mm-hmm 

Gordon: ... does a great job of helping us organize, uh, getting the word out and bringing candidates in.

But then when we get them, there's still work to do. 

Kaitlyn: Mm-hmm. 

Gordon: So talk a little bit about, uh, uh, improvements and streamlining and whatnot that you've done on our onboarding, um, process and things that go along with that. 

Kaitlyn: Yeah, I, I, like you just [00:27:00] said, like it's a small industry so, um, when when I first got here, recruiting was done by who you guys knew.

Like, oh, we know this person, they worked here, or I know someone that knows someone that, you know, we wanna hire. And, um, so we started to get the systems and the processes underway, and that, that still naturally happens. You know, you hear about someone through the grapevine may be interested in looking somewhere else.

Mm-hmm. But, um, you know, when you get here, then it's like, okay, well, how, what do I do, you know? Uh, so I have, again, a lot of experience in maybe onboarding not efficiently, and was like, okay, well, I never wanna feel like when I show up to work that nobody knows I'm here. 

Gordon: Exactly. 

Kaitlyn: Like, "Oh, it's your first day.

Who are you?" Like, hopefully everyone knows who you are. It's your first day. Your desk is set up. Yes.

Gordon: We're, we're so 

excited that you're here. 

Kaitlyn: Yeah. Um, so we, we coordinate a lot between our admin team, our IT team, like us, like everyone has a role. It's documented and laid out. Um, that's the task type in me-

and the PeopleMap. Uh, so [00:28:00] and that took some time to refine, you know, especially as we opened more offices and maybe the people we're onboarding 100% remote and what that looked like in smaller offices. And I think we've got a really good system and process down now. You know, it, it flows through ADP or our ATS and, you know, it kinda works for itself.

Um, but that, that was definitely another one of the things like when I first started, like, okay, well, we're finding the people and we're hiring them and we're growing and everything's going well, but we could probably, you know, outline this a little bit better. Uh, you know, our career fairs too, you know.

So we've got people coming in through our applicants, but maybe we're not finding who we're looking for, and maybe no one knows anyone for this role, so we're gonna grow them internally-

Gordon: Yeah 

Kaitlyn: ... you know? Yeah. Um, and we were always really established at USF. You know, you and Hiren went there and had good connections there, and, uh, the Orlando office was growing, so we really started to dive into UCF.

And as we've [00:29:00] grown, we've found more schools where maybe somebody at PGA is like, "I'm an alumni," or, "My son or my daughter goes here." Yeah we started looking at that too, and that was really fun when we started growing, and then it got to a point where it was like we were going to 30 events in a semester, and we kinda had to say, "Okay, well, which ones are we gonna pick, and how are we gonna invest our time?"

Like, coming back to that intentionality, um. Somewhere in this process, I grew my team. I've got two really incredible recruiters on the team now that kinda help me go to the events. Well, they go to most of them. Um, and we built some, some tools around that as well. Um, Madelyn's really great. She wanted to dive into, you know, are we getting the return on investment in all these events that we're going through, general body meetings and career fairs and, um, SWE and SHPE and ASCE, you know?

Uh, which ones are working for us? So we built a tool to kinda track each [00:30:00] semester how much we pay for the event, how much we're spe- time we're spending traveling and maybe overnight or driving across the state, and then how many students apply, and then how many students do we hire. Um, and that really kinda helps us every semester look at where we're gonna go at the end of the year when I'm budgeting for the next year for career fairs.

Like, we're always successful here, or maybe this one isn't always successful, or maybe a school is just starting a group. You know? They've never had ASCE or SHPE before, and this is their first time, so we give them the benefit of the doubt. We probably go back to one or two more events, and then, um, just depending on, like, strategic hires, you know, if we're looking to grow in South Florida, maybe we'll go to a school down there.

And, uh, it's always different every semester. 

Gordon: Yep. Y'all do a great job of that. We, we definitely get spread around, and y'all get pretty good, I think, volunteers- Yeah ... uh, from, from staff. 

Kaitlyn: Yeah. It's, it's really, really great that [00:31:00] everyone here is committed to recruiting, so it's not like me or Madelyn or Trevor at every event every week everywhere- Yeah, yeah

in Florida. Um, you know, people are always volunteering. Like, "Oh, I'd love to go. I'd love to go," or, uh, you know, supervisors are recommending their staff based on their goals. You know, maybe they wanna- Hmm ... do public speaking or- 

Gordon: Oh, that's good. 

Kaitlyn: Yeah, and so they'll say, "Okay, well, go to a career fair," you know?

"Go s- go present at an ASCE general body meeting, and you'll learn about public speaking." I 

Gordon: think, yeah, Hiren made me feel a little guilty. I think he's going to a USF one- I think he- ... sometime this year. Yeah. 

Kaitlyn: He's been to a UF one too. 

Gordon: Oh, yeah, yeah. That's right. Yeah. Yeah, he sneaks up there I probably need to go to one 

Kaitlyn: They would love to hear from you.

Gordon: I'm sure they would. Um, all right. What about, uh, a couple programs? So, uh, we got STEP & LIT. We'll do STEP first. Um, we started [00:32:00] that, I guess we started that before you guys? 

Kaitlyn: Yeah, I- Yeah. 

Gordon: Yeah ...

Kaitlyn: I wanna say- 

Gordon: 'Cause that was, like, Johnny's brainchild ... it, yeah, 

Kaitlyn: I wanna say this is our fifth year 

Gordon: Johnny Fung 

Kaitlyn: Don't quote me on that.

Hopefully this is our fifth year, but it's definitely we're, we're a few years into it now and, uh, same there. We, we switch it up every year. I mean, the, the, the base of it is it's a rotational internship program over the summer. Um, and it's great for students that are maybe like a junior, a senior that still has a couple semesters.

Like they got their core fundamentals of the classes, and civil engineering has so many facets of it, so they don't know if they wanna do transportation. Everyone knows they love structures. Yeah. Um, and it really gives them an opportunity to have a day in the life in every discipline and really understand what it's like to work a project from the beginning to the end.

Gordon: Yeah. I think we really built up a reputation. Like the kids [00:33:00] really- 

Kaitlyn: Mm-hmm ... 

Gordon: pour in for that. 

Kaitlyn: Mm-hmm. 

Gordon: And so it's nice 'cause we get to Do a bunch of interviews like y'all are 

Kaitlyn: Yeah 

Gordon: I guess maybe you're wrapped up now, or you got a one or two more, but like 

Kaitlyn: Yeah ... 

Gordon: it's a whole, that's a whole thing, and then we pick cream of the crop.

Kaitlyn: Mm-hmm. The, I think the first year I did it, there was just folders of resumes Mm-hmm ... like paper resumes everywhere. And, um, you know, students were like, "Oh, I'm interested," or, "I wanna do this," you know? And now I think at a lot of the career fairs we go to, people know about the internship program or maybe someone in, you know, their committee or at the school has done it in the past, and they heard great things.

And so the, the competition is really tough, you know. We, we wish we could hire 100 interns, um, but it wouldn't be as, you know, valuable to them. Um, but we get really good feedback every year. Mm-hmm. Uh, so y- we, you know, just like an employee exits, we make sure to debrief with them. What did you like? How could we do better?

You know, did it make sense that we rotated the disciplines this [00:34:00] way? And I think almost every year we've tweaked a little bit- 

Gordon: Mm-hmm 

Kaitlyn: ... something about the program. Maybe, um, so at the end of the program, there's a, a project, and they have to present and use those public speaking skills and- 

Gordon: They do a good 

job, too.

Speaker 2: They do. You know, we have leadership from all the disciplines join in and pretend like they're an actual, you know, person pursuing a project and give them good notes or ask really tough questions and see how they answer. 

Gordon: I think that's why Johnny 

wanted to do this program, so he could sit in those presentations and ask them all those tough questions.

He grills them, man. 

Kaitlyn: He really does. Carol's really good at it, too. She asks a lot of really good questions- Yeah ... too, so. Um, and I think they learn a lot from it. You know, we, a lot of the time we have the STEP interns come back for a discipline internship. Um, Garrett is a good example. Mm-hmm. He, he's now full-time with us.

He's been with us for a while, a year or so. Um, so that was the goal, I think, of the program when it first started, was giving students an opportunity to really understand [00:35:00] what it's like. I think maybe DOT does something similar. 

Gordon: Mm-hmm. Yeah, for, yeah, for a long, the PE training program, they've had that for a long time.

Kaitlyn: Yeah. And 

Gordon: I guess we sort of modeled it after that. I mean, it's, it's a good idea. 

Kaitlyn: Yeah. Well, I've worked at other engineering firms that, like, thought about it but couldn't make it work because they were siloed. Like, you know- Mm-hmm ... this office pays for their employees and, like, you know, maybe if they're getting work from Tampa or if there's not a roadway in Orlando, like, how would that work?

And so I know one particular company, they really wanted to do it, but they just couldn't get- Hmm ... couldn't get it to work. And, um, so that's a, a ben- 

Gordon: It's easy. 

Kaitlyn: Yeah, that's a benefit of us, you know? N- one cost center, you know, working all the offices.

Gordon: And everybody on the same page too, yeah. 

Kaitlyn: Yeah, yeah.

Everyone works together. 

Gordon: All right. Leadership and training. Uh, I'm sure we've talked about this a couple times, uh, on previous episodes. Um, so this is our, as you know, uh, our, our annual program. I think we're on our fourth [00:36:00] cohort. I 

Kaitlyn: think so, yeah. 

Gordon: Um, so but, you know, six, seven, eight of our, uh, some of them are kind of existing leaders.

Some of them it's, it's usually a mix of, of sort of upcoming leaders and maybe those that have been leaders for a while.

Kaitlyn: Mm-hmm. 

Gordon: And we, we send them through, um, to really four, four solid sessions, and then a fifth sort of wrap up. They do-

Kaitlyn: Presentation. 

Gordon: Yeah. Mm-hmm ... they do a presentation, and then 

they 

graduate.

Kaitlyn: Mm-hmm. 

Gordon: Um, and it's, it's turned into a really, really great program, and this came out of our first strategic plan. Uh, and we had Mark Isaak facilitate the very first year, um, which you were in, you were in-

Kaitlyn: I wa- I 

watched that one 

Gordon: ... you, you 

watched it. 

Kaitlyn: Yeah. 

Gordon: And you partic- you were in the second cohort. 

Kaitlyn: Yeah.

Gordon: That's right. Yeah. 

Kaitlyn: The second cohort, actually. 

Gordon: Yeah, because 

you had to train in your own cohort a little bit. 

Speaker: Yeah. 

Kaitlyn: Yeah. I participated and presented. Anyway, 

Gordon: this is probably something you didn't anticipate when you were interviewing for the position- No, I did not ... that you would have, uh- Yeah ... you know, uh, something like this to do.

But, uh, yeah, ta- talk a little bit about, um, LIT and [00:37:00] the, the role that you have assumed, uh- 

Kaitlyn: Mm-hmm 

Gordon: ... in that, uh 

Kaitlyn: Yeah. So I present the first two sessions. Um, the first session we really get into the PeopleMap and personality types and communicating with different people, kind of going back to the tough conversations.

Um, it helps prepare leaders to have those conversations- 

Gordon: Mm-hmm 

Kaitlyn: ... by just understanding people a little bit better. And, uh, for those that don't know, the PeopleMap, it's a AEC personality assessment. Um, it's not like an hour long, it's, it's really quick and to the point, but there's four personality types and similar to all the other ones, you know, DISC and Myers-Brigg that break down, you know, you communicate this way or you organize your tasks this way, or, um, y- you know, this motivates you, whatever type you are.

Uh, so that's the first session. I got certified in PeopleMap to be a PeopleMap trainer, and it's been exciting to see the feedback that people, like, [00:38:00] really find it interesting and like understand, "Oh, well, that's why my boss does this." Or, "Oh, that's why when I ask my employee, they don't do this," you know?

Um- Or I bet 

Gordon: my wife must be a... 

Kaitlyn: Yeah, exactly. 

Gordon: Y'all fill in the blank for that whatever you want. Pe- PeopleMap type is what I was thinking. 

Kaitlyn: Yes, exactly. And, um, it's always fun to see people make the connections, but it, it really helps you become a better leader, is understanding people, understanding, you know, what motivates them, how they like to be communicated with, and then how to be a leader for your staff- Mm-hmm

and, um, help them grow in different ways. And so we really... That's a lot of the first session. Uh, the second session we get into some of the things we've talked about here, like, um, you know, what, well, what happens if you've understood your employee and you've tried to communicate with them and that's not working.

You know, really getting into having the tough conversations and when to have a coaching note and, um, talking through a little bit deeper of like who we [00:39:00] are and recruiting. And, uh, so as a leader, you can go out and find the people, and then you bring them in, and then you hopefully help them continue to grow, and then you grow as a person as well.

So we do a lot of activities. Um, we do some role playing or, you know, what would you do if kind of thing 

Gordon: Very good. Well, I think that just about covers everything we had on our list to talk about. Anything else on your mind? 

Kaitlyn: No, that was a lot. 

Gordon: Yeah, I think we covered it. 

Kaitlyn: Yeah. 

Gordon: Well, 

you're doing a great job, um, covering your two sessions of LIT.

Um, you're doing a great job as a HR director- 

Kaitlyn: Thank you ... 

Gordon: AKA talent management director. 

Kaitlyn: Thank 

you. 

Gordon: Um, and we got a lot more growing to do, so- 

Kaitlyn: We do 

Gordon: ... uh, more work, more work to do. 

Kaitlyn: Mm-hmm. 

Gordon: All right, well, thank you for joining me, uh, on this episode. It has been a pleasure- 

Kaitlyn: Yeah, thanks for having me ... 

Gordon: covering these 

topics.

Kaitlyn: My first podcast. 

Gordon: First podcast ever. All right, so we'll end this one like we do. We're gonna do it on three. 

Kaitlyn: Okay. 

Gordon: All 

[00:40:00] right. One, two. 

Go PGA. 

Kaitlyn: Go PGA.